Ok, it's late and I'm really tired and my head is far from being clear, so I'll just skip the introduction and come to the point, hoping to make my point as clear as possible in my current state (then again, this was an introduction, no? Man, am I rambling...). Ok, what I want to say is: What if you don't design your game as usual, meaning: You think about what would be fun, come up with some cool features etc. bla bla, but instead you do it like an artist, or an author who writes books with a little more niveau than your average fantasy or Sci-Fi crap. Your reflect about life, the world and everything; you explore your feelings, all that stuff. And then you come up with a story (or only a theme, or only a feeling you have in your stomach, whatever), a story which expresses what you think and feel; a story which contains something you want to tell everybody (tough luck if you don't have to say anything 'cause your horizon doesn't go beyond programming and Star Trek...). But then you use the fact that you don't write a book, but a computer game; you think about in which way your game could express YOU the best, how you could immerse the player in your vision the most etc., and then you give the player the chance to interact with your vision in a way no book could do (if you use this approach there is always the "danger" that you would be better off with writing a book or start painting or something...think about wether making games is really the best way...). And please don't misunderstand me; your games shouldn't be boring, they shouldn't be complex, psychidelic trips noone understands (or maybe they should, why not?). Shakespeare (or some other guy, don't really know it actually) said the first rule in making theatre plays is "Thou shalt not bore", but then again, there are other things that can entertain than blasting aliens to tiny bits. Yeah, I know, you say, "But this is what we were talking about" in your Landfishian discussions about creating virtual worlds and all, but no, it is not. I mean, you don't need complex mathematical stat-systems, you don't need AI controlled NPCs who are smarter than you and all that stuff (not that this stuff isn' really very cool); you just need to be a little bit crazy. You can achieve your goals by simple means, and they can also be fun. Well, I don't know how many Doors-Fans are here, but let me take them as an example of what I mean: The Doors were a rock-Band in the sixties. They made music the "normal" people liked, well, they made rock after all. BUT under the "mainstream"-music everybody liked there was so much more; Jim Morrison's great poetry was art, and it was far beyond "Take LSD and wear flowers, than the world will finally be at peace" and also the music was really complex beyond usual Rock'n'Roll; but the fact that the music was relatively easily accesible didn't hurt the artistic value at all, actually it even helped. What the fuck is this bum trying to tell us with his Doors-metaphor, you ask? Well I want to say, while getting headaches about how we can create the perfect virtual world, we shouldn't forget to also think of how we can make our games being of a deeper value too. It could even be done with a really simple game engine and using "traditional" RPG-systems (without the shallow content of course); as long as you put your heart into it and use the medium by giving the player an experience he couldn't have with any other medium (and of course a perfect virtual world where everything is possible won't hurt...or maybe it does...), you can create something really great. And don't just sit around swallowing all the wonderful things our brave new world wants you to eat. Think; take a walk outside; take a close look at the people around you; and read. Read newspapers, read books, and read all sorts of books, not just fantasy and Sci-Fi (but read them too, if you like 'em; just look at other things, and you might like them...). Clear your mind; just sit there and stare at a wall, run around screaming in a circle, walk into a forest and enjoy the silence there, go insane, or solve complicated equations and create a perfect AI, not that this can't widen your horizon... just live your life to the fullest and then you will be able to fill your games with content deeper than all the usual stuff you find today. I don't say everybody should do this; but it would be a nice diversion. Commit the ultimate Goblin Genocide and ban them from your mind. Oh boy, how much would I give to know what I'm actually talking about... --------------------- It's time to aim your arrows at the sun... Edited by - Roderik on 7/31/00 7:42:22 PM

i like your thinking here...i have recently begun to take a different approach to game design, similar to this. i try to think about themes for the game, and work some depth into it. i have also begun to take a different approach to engine development/advancement. i design the game free of technological restrictions in my mind, and then i look over the design and decide what would work best to make the game...if the game is going to take place indoors 99% of the time, there is no sense in making a voxel terrain engine, for example. im sure this seems blatantly obvious, and maybe that is how others do it. i dunno...

we do need some more depth to our games though. i think in the next few years we will see the big companies start to add this content (if you dont have it yet i strongly recommend deus ex...best game i have played in a long time). we as the small developers should be at the fore front of this paradigm shift. i am sure no one in their basement is going to create a game that can compete with the technology of quake III or unreal, or whatever...but we can certainly beat them with style...big companies with big budgets wont take the risk to make an eccentric game (look at the sales for system shock 2 and thief 2 compared to quake and halflife), but as smaller indies we certainly can. imo there is so much more story telling potential in games than in any other media because of the interaction factor. no one has exploited this yet though. literature has it''s ulysses'' and paradise losts, film has it''s space odyssies and citizen canes...and games have...quake? lets try something completely different.

<(o)>

Man, long post... Was interresting reading it....

Though, i''m a programmer (at least, that''s what i call myself ;-)

I just wondered Roderik, which part of Austria r u from?
(I''m from Upper Austria, nearby Linz)

cya,

Phil

To phueppl1: I'm from Upper Austria too, St. Florian to be exactly, which is near Schärding and the border to germany (about 18 Kilometres to Passau) and about 80 kilometres from Linz.

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Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind...

Edited by - Roderik on August 1, 2000 7:10:38 AM

Though I agree with you roderik (yeah I know, that''s kinda lame to post to say this), I''ll answer with only one word : MARKETING.
Did you see the Pepsi ad about the Slug of Death... well if you did then you understand even better.

youpla :-P

No, I don't know this Pepsi-ad; what's it about? And for the marketing thing, well first I have to say that I don't give a fuck about it, since I'm only 17 yet and I still have a few years in which I can create the games I want (school + university) before I might go commercial and sell my soul to the devil And if I am allowed to get back to my Doors-Metaphor a last time (I'll shut up then, I promise): They were also pretty succesfull and had a few number one-hits, but it didn't damage their artistic value at all. Those were other times of course, not yet THAT commericalized (?), but I think it can be done if you try hard enough. Noone says you have to make boring games in order to give them deeper content, and as long as games aren't boring, they will sell (or will they? Well, maybe I'm talking complete sh!t...)

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Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile eggshell mind...

Edited by - Roderik on August 1, 2000 8:46:00 AM

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Populatrity and artistic value are never linked in any medium, why should games be any different. If you are looking to make something of meaning, do it. Market demographics be damned. I shudder to think that someone on this board believes the above statement is a strong arguement against being artistic.

Damn straight... Here at GDNet I have to say that a lot of posts that I see are about creative expression. I have seen some of the best ideas for games come out of here, and I have also been posting about creative expression... Who cares about a game being published! As long as you please the people who count and the people you can then count on, who really cares? Make friends throw around ideas, anything is good. The 3D shooters are getting old... they need something new

That is what we are here for


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