)
I truely think that there''s more roleplaying, more character, more adventure and everything else that rpg''s pretend to be in FPS''s than there is in RPG''s. Period!
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
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RPG's dont have any Characters
Author
Personality Traits: Determined, inquistive, loner
Appearence: Black suit, white shirt, cell phone
Motivation: FBI agent/uncover conspiricies
Catch Phrase: "The Truth Is Out There"
Name: ?
Personality Trait: Egotistical
Appearence: Sunglasses, red muscle shirt, bandoliers, blond flattop
Motivation: Kick alien ass/Score with babes
Catch Phrase: "Come Get Some"
Name: ?
This is character people and i would like to know why in so many rpg''s no "characters" actually have any of the above (real character - for the dumbies )
I truely think that there''s more roleplaying, more character, more adventure and everything else that rpg''s pretend to be in FPS''s than there is in RPG''s. Period!
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
)
I truely think that there''s more roleplaying, more character, more adventure and everything else that rpg''s pretend to be in FPS''s than there is in RPG''s. Period!
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
ROFL Now that''s a good way to prove your point !
For my two cents, I''ll jsut say the same old thing... did you ever play RPG ?
I really really really think all RPG designers out there should play RPGs just once, and NOT just AD&D (there are litteraly hundreds of RPGs that are NOT AD&D. Fall out for instance, is based on the GURPS rules system), and read a bit about "how to handle a campaign", "how to give life to your NPC", "how to handle magic", etc, etc.
I think I have a good idea, I''ll start translating all the nice articles published in a french magazine called Casus Belli. There are plenty of obvious tips in it that just seem to not exist at all in computer RPG.
And this post of yours is yet another proof that there are plenty of simple things yet to be rediscovered by computer people ... so much time wasted because of a lack of research. THAT is bad game design, IMHO.
Here, jsut a little example of a standard NPC from one scenario taken from one of the mag :
Sir Caladan, Bourgmeister
appearance : 50 years old, fat, bald, with rich cloths and a massive gold chain around the neck.
abilities : seduction, persuasion, speech, management, literacy (read/write), laws, general knowledge.
habits : starts most of his sentences with "My dear friend..."
catchphrases : very well educated, he never swears. If you really push him, and he got annoyed, which is rare, he would eventually let a "Damn !", but that''s pretty much it. (think Giles in Buffy)
secrets : his functions and knowledge allows him to put aside some gold from the local taxes without anyone ever noticing.
favorite object : a medaillon with a picture of his beloved daughter.
Well, just to say that it *does* exist. You can''t have ALL NPC be as interesting as a hero, but it''s noce to have a way to quickly summarize someone. With the above description, I''m ready to improvise this guy for my players, with a good idea of how to act him.
youpla :-P
Now that''s a good way to prove your point !For my two cents, I''ll jsut say the same old thing... did you ever play RPG ?
I really really really think all RPG designers out there should play RPGs just once, and NOT just AD&D (there are litteraly hundreds of RPGs that are NOT AD&D. Fall out for instance, is based on the GURPS rules system), and read a bit about "how to handle a campaign", "how to give life to your NPC", "how to handle magic", etc, etc.
I think I have a good idea, I''ll start translating all the nice articles published in a french magazine called Casus Belli. There are plenty of obvious tips in it that just seem to not exist at all in computer RPG.
And this post of yours is yet another proof that there are plenty of simple things yet to be rediscovered by computer people ... so much time wasted because of a lack of research. THAT is bad game design, IMHO.
Here, jsut a little example of a standard NPC from one scenario taken from one of the mag :
Sir Caladan, Bourgmeister
appearance : 50 years old, fat, bald, with rich cloths and a massive gold chain around the neck.
abilities : seduction, persuasion, speech, management, literacy (read/write), laws, general knowledge.
habits : starts most of his sentences with "My dear friend..."
catchphrases : very well educated, he never swears. If you really push him, and he got annoyed, which is rare, he would eventually let a "Damn !", but that''s pretty much it. (think Giles in Buffy)
secrets : his functions and knowledge allows him to put aside some gold from the local taxes without anyone ever noticing.
favorite object : a medaillon with a picture of his beloved daughter.
Well, just to say that it *does* exist. You can''t have ALL NPC be as interesting as a hero, but it''s noce to have a way to quickly summarize someone. With the above description, I''m ready to improvise this guy for my players, with a good idea of how to act him.
youpla :-P
If you want to design a RPG, play dozen of them before.
Be a player, be a master, but whatever play !
My experience (about 10 years) in RPG help me much in thinking/designing games.
In fact all I do is to replicate the tips I found while being a GM.
That''s not so hard
Of course being a Designer and not a RPGamer might lead to interesting conclusions.
I have to say that some character are deep and very complex one.
The two you talked about are ''ARCHETYPES'' they are no human at all, they are exagerated.
If you mean that we need to create exagerated characters, you''re not totally wrong.
Just don''t create overexagerated characters.
A bit of exageration is needed to show the player the character of the character
Just my 0.02$
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
Be a player, be a master, but whatever play !
My experience (about 10 years) in RPG help me much in thinking/designing games.
In fact all I do is to replicate the tips I found while being a GM.
That''s not so hard
Of course being a Designer and not a RPGamer might lead to interesting conclusions.
I have to say that some character are deep and very complex one.
The two you talked about are ''ARCHETYPES'' they are no human at all, they are exagerated.
If you mean that we need to create exagerated characters, you''re not totally wrong.
Just don''t create overexagerated characters.
A bit of exageration is needed to show the player the character of the character
Just my 0.02$
-* So many things to do, so little time to spend. *-
Having not played ANY REAL RPGs, I have to say that I still understand WHAT an RPG is, HOW to make one and whatsmore... I know how to be inventive... Just read that doc of mine and realise that , but anyway... I think that by not having been restricted in my thinking by playing those types of games, I have a broader approach as to what I think I can implement
In the creation of my RPG though... I am going in with the aid of a DM so that I am going to have at least SOME input from an RPG freak... And I will see if I can recruit some more
-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)
Check our site:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/
Check out our NPC AI Mailing List :
http://www.egroups.com/group/NPCAI/
made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)
, but anyway... I think that by not having been restricted in my thinking by playing those types of games, I have a broader approach as to what I think I can implementIn the creation of my RPG though... I am going in with the aid of a DM so that I am going to have at least SOME input from an RPG freak... And I will see if I can recruit some more
-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)
Check our site:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/
Check out our NPC AI Mailing List :
http://www.egroups.com/group/NPCAI/
made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)
A great deal of RPGs make the mistake of assuming that the writer cannot speak for the main character, because the player is supposed to be "playing his role". Now, once you realize that so-called computer role-playing games have next to nothing to do with playing a role, this becomes ridiculous. Three examples.
Suikoden, a great game in most aspects, but the main character never speaks unless asked a yes or no question. This happens about ten times in the game. He answers the question and that''s it. To make matters worse, if you give the "wrong" answer, the NPCs browbeat you into the "right"one...
Jade Cocoon, also worth a look. This is even worse with this particular problem, although this game does do a lot of great things. Take the above problem, and add voiceovers to ALL NPCs, but your character NEVER speaks. You feel like a mute. It''s awful.
Panzer Dragoon Saga. If you know anything about ME, you know I love this game. Every character is voiceovered and motion capture animated. You have ZERO decision in what your character says, but you don''t mind because he speaks, loud and clear. He has a defined, human personality. He''s an angry young lad... Why don''t I care that I''m not the one who said he should be?
Anyway, it''s nearly impossible to define a character in a literary sense when they don''t speak. (unless they''re mute!) Game writers haven''t figured this out yet, but we can even make characters who do/say things that the player wouldn''t/disagrees with. We have a literary contract with the player to make a good story. This OVERRIDES the need for interactivity when it becomes necessary to do so.
======
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates
"Question everything. Especially Landfish."
-Matt
Suikoden, a great game in most aspects, but the main character never speaks unless asked a yes or no question. This happens about ten times in the game. He answers the question and that''s it. To make matters worse, if you give the "wrong" answer, the NPCs browbeat you into the "right"one...
Jade Cocoon, also worth a look. This is even worse with this particular problem, although this game does do a lot of great things. Take the above problem, and add voiceovers to ALL NPCs, but your character NEVER speaks. You feel like a mute. It''s awful.
Panzer Dragoon Saga. If you know anything about ME, you know I love this game. Every character is voiceovered and motion capture animated. You have ZERO decision in what your character says, but you don''t mind because he speaks, loud and clear. He has a defined, human personality. He''s an angry young lad... Why don''t I care that I''m not the one who said he should be?
Anyway, it''s nearly impossible to define a character in a literary sense when they don''t speak. (unless they''re mute!) Game writers haven''t figured this out yet, but we can even make characters who do/say things that the player wouldn''t/disagrees with. We have a literary contract with the player to make a good story. This OVERRIDES the need for interactivity when it becomes necessary to do so.
======
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates
"Question everything. Especially Landfish."
-Matt
I''m right there with Landfish. Personally, table-top RPG''s and PC RPG''s in my mind are two completely different genres. They have commonalities, yes, but the whole idea behind them is different. It will be a great while before you can pull a loose brick out of the wall, hastily whisper a fire enchantment on it, and fling it at your opponent -- all without the GM/programmer planning on this -- on a PC game. It''s too much to account for, you''d have a game that took exabytes of space and millennia to make.
That said, absolutely why not have the designer give the PC main character a personality that the player can identify with, and provide that component of "specialization, customization, and personalization" of characters with stuff like items and advancement trees, which technology DOES permit a great deal of "ization" with, sometimes moreso than a table-top game can offer. Just take a look at Diablo 2.
That said, absolutely why not have the designer give the PC main character a personality that the player can identify with, and provide that component of "specialization, customization, and personalization" of characters with stuff like items and advancement trees, which technology DOES permit a great deal of "ization" with, sometimes moreso than a table-top game can offer. Just take a look at Diablo 2.
Somebody posted an idea a while ago about a creating the setup/personality or stats for your character by making the player play out a child scene. In this child scene, there would be non-threatening events, but there would be choices about what to do and based on the way that the player chose, their charcter would get certain attributes. With a little study you could probably find a personality, a history etc. that would suit the choices that the player made in this state. It would be the customisation and would not be the "be all and end all" of the matter, because the character could change through the course of the game.
Just my $(2*rant/100)
-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)
Check our site:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/
Check out our NPC AI Mailing List :
http://www.egroups.com/group/NPCAI/
made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)
Just my $(2*rant/100)
-Chris Bennett ("Insanity" of Dwarfsoft)
Check our site:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~dwarfsoft/
Check out our NPC AI Mailing List :
http://www.egroups.com/group/NPCAI/
made due to popular demand here at GDNet :)
Author
Firsf all i'd like to say that ahw is an absolute asset to us rpg fanatics at gamedev.net. Thank you for your interpretations Please read ahw's first post here!
why not? (excuse my pickyness )
you mean sterotyped? i'm sorry but i'm feeling very heartless about this subject! Who's next
yes, i'm half way through it as i type this, and thanks for the credits i'm looking forward to reading the rest and giving you some more feed back. Great doc Chris
Landfish, i had to read your post many times to grasp what you were really saying! Especially the first paragraph and then after. I would agree that it's ridiculas to think that a player is playing a role. But tell me honestly, do you really think that the Game Designer of these games is really thinking this? Really? ...really? erk if they are!!!!!
I don't know whether to cry or laugh, ho hum... cry?
Retry
Abort
Enter
? [flashing cursor]
now that's a fun game (canned laughter in the background)
You'll never hear the end of me over this comment! bullshit
Interesting terminoly Landfish, i see your persective now when it comes to RPG's. Gottcha
Brilliance, absolute BRILLIANCE!!! Don't forget this Landfish! Honesty Pays!! But you ARE talking about a "Story". This to me is the controvesial issue... games and stories are like sugar and salt. "It takes a brilliant chef to bring the two together in unimaginable yet perfect ways". Would you agree?
Now i'll read your post again and see if i missed something
Ok, just a thought that might help?!
Are you sure that this game isn't appealing to you because of something personal instead of something to do with Game Design/Writing? The reason why i ask this is because i take your word with thought Landfish ... feel free not to answer! (i don't want to corner people with my questions) that goes for everyone btw
Thankyou for your intelligent relies people, i couldn't have asked for more. Specificality... it's better than sex, well almost
I was just about to hit the reply button but that would be unfair, i should express my opinion sofar (unadulterated with quotes) so here goes.
I believe that with the extremely short history of rpg's and with it's potential (and beauty) that it's being abused. I sincerly repect the efforts being made to defend the power and wiz of the Role Playing Game. This thread was more of a statment that i hope WILL be taken seriously by thoughs who finish making a RPG and consider the consequences of what they are doing. I really don't know how far i should take this fun concept because of the interesting and controversial issues mentioned above. How serious is this, or how serious can one take it? I for one am confused. No, i don't think it's really that serious, do you?
Apart from that i hope that i've helped sofar, and look forward to helping more.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Edited by - Paul Cunningham on August 8, 2000 8:28:44 PM
Please read ahw's first post here!quote:
from ahw...
Well, just to say that it *does* exist. You can't have ALL NPC be as interesting as a hero,
why not? (excuse my pickyness
)quote:
from ingenu
I have to say that some character{s} are {a} deep and very complex one.
The two you talked about are 'ARCHETYPES' they are no human at all, they are exagerated.
you mean sterotyped? i'm sorry but i'm feeling very heartless about this subject! Who's next
quote:
from dwarfsoft
Having not played ANY REAL RPGs, I have to say that I still understand WHAT an RPG is, HOW to make one and whatsmore... I know how to be inventive... Just read that doc of mine and realise that
yes, i'm half way through it as i type this, and thanks for the credits
i'm looking forward to reading the rest and giving you some more feed back. Great doc Chris Landfish, i had to read your post many times to grasp what you were really saying! Especially the first paragraph and then after. I would agree that it's ridiculas to think that a player is playing a role. But tell me honestly, do you really think that the Game Designer of these games is really thinking this? Really? ...really?
erk if they are!!!!!quote:
Suikoden, a great game in most aspects, but the main character never speaks unless asked a yes or no question. This happens about ten times in the game. He answers the question and that's it. To make matters worse, if you give the "wrong" answer, the NPCs browbeat you into the "right"one...
I don't know whether to cry or laugh, ho hum... cry?
Retry
Abort
Enter
? [flashing cursor]
now that's a fun game
(canned laughter in the background) quote:
by Landfish
Anyway, it's nearly impossible to define a character in a literary sense when they don't speak.
You'll never hear the end of me over this comment! bullshit
quote:
Game writers
Interesting terminoly Landfish, i see your persective now when it comes to RPG's. Gottcha
quote: By LandFish
We have a literary contract with the player to make a good story. This OVERRIDES the need for interactivity when it becomes necessary to do so.
Brilliance, absolute BRILLIANCE!!! Don't forget this Landfish! Honesty Pays!!
But you ARE talking about a "Story". This to me is the controvesial issue... games and stories are like sugar and salt. "It takes a brilliant chef to bring the two together in unimaginable yet perfect ways". Would you agree?Now i'll read your post again and see if i missed something
Ok, just a thought that might help?!
quote:
Panzer Dragoon Saga. If you know anything about ME, you know I love this game. Every character is voiceovered and motion capture animated. You have ZERO decision in what your character says, but you don't mind because he speaks, loud and clear. He has a defined, human personality. He's an angry young lad... Why don't I care that I'm not the one who said he should be?
Are you sure that this game isn't appealing to you because of something personal instead of something to do with Game Design/Writing? The reason why i ask this is because i take your word with thought Landfish
... feel free not to answer! (i don't want to corner people with my questions) that goes for everyone btw Thankyou for your intelligent relies people, i couldn't have asked for more. Specificality... it's better than sex, well almost
I was just about to hit the reply button but that would be unfair, i should express my opinion sofar (unadulterated with quotes) so here goes.
I believe that with the extremely short history of rpg's and with it's potential (and beauty) that it's being abused. I sincerly repect the efforts being made to defend the power and wiz of the Role Playing Game. This thread was more of a statment that i hope WILL be taken seriously by thoughs who finish making a RPG and consider the consequences of what they are doing. I really don't know how far i should take this fun concept because of the interesting and controversial issues mentioned above. How serious is this, or how serious can one take it? I for one am confused. No, i don't think it's really that serious, do you?
Apart from that i hope that i've helped sofar, and look forward to helping more.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Edited by - Paul Cunningham on August 8, 2000 8:28:44 PM
Okay, now for the dissenting opinion...
I HATE IT WHEN MY CHARACTER SPEAKS FOR ME!!!!!!!
You know, I loved Duke Nukem''s "I ain''t got time to play with myself..." lines just like the next guy. And Bruce Campbells voice in Tachyon (?) sounds cool from time to time. But I absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly, HATE it when some actor is talking for my character. (I also happen to hate it when a FPS hand reaches out and reminds me that I''m not the character in a game-- uh, most of the time I''m not even that color...)
I''ve got no problem with characters that talk TO me. I loved Maniac in the Wing Commander games. The Master was chilling and awesome in Fallout. But when a character talks FOR me in a game (like Bruce Campbell in Tachyon) I know it''s Bruce Campbell talking, and not me. This smashes my immersion.
You know, in Fallout, when *I* the Master said to me, "What will it be? Will you join us, or will you die?" and I said, "How ''bout I kill you, then leave" I didn''t need Arnold Swartzeneggar doing the friggin'' voice over. (In fact, it would have been totally inappropriate, as I was playing La Femme Nikita!)
For main characters, I''d follow the lead of the awesome Half-Life... Gordon Freeman, the strong, silent type, didn''t even grunt or groan when he fell. The sound was appropriate enough that I knew what was happening and could, during the game, sorta feel like it was me...
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
I HATE IT WHEN MY CHARACTER SPEAKS FOR ME!!!!!!!
You know, I loved Duke Nukem''s "I ain''t got time to play with myself..." lines just like the next guy. And Bruce Campbells voice in Tachyon (?) sounds cool from time to time. But I absolutely, completely, wholeheartedly, HATE it when some actor is talking for my character. (I also happen to hate it when a FPS hand reaches out and reminds me that I''m not the character in a game-- uh, most of the time I''m not even that color...)
I''ve got no problem with characters that talk TO me. I loved Maniac in the Wing Commander games. The Master was chilling and awesome in Fallout. But when a character talks FOR me in a game (like Bruce Campbell in Tachyon) I know it''s Bruce Campbell talking, and not me. This smashes my immersion.
You know, in Fallout, when *I* the Master said to me, "What will it be? Will you join us, or will you die?" and I said, "How ''bout I kill you, then leave" I didn''t need Arnold Swartzeneggar doing the friggin'' voice over. (In fact, it would have been totally inappropriate, as I was playing La Femme Nikita!)
For main characters, I''d follow the lead of the awesome Half-Life... Gordon Freeman, the strong, silent type, didn''t even grunt or groan when he fell. The sound was appropriate enough that I knew what was happening and could, during the game, sorta feel like it was me...
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
There''s something to be said for the difference between INTERRUPTING an experience with a cheesy one liner, and an expected event triggered by the player. I do see your point though. It could go either way, really.
Paul''s right, this is like cooking. It could be good either way if it''s done right. For fear of completely derailing this thread, I''m starting another on the topic of character/player relationship.
======
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates
"Question everything. Especially Landfish."
-Matt
Paul''s right, this is like cooking. It could be good either way if it''s done right. For fear of completely derailing this thread, I''m starting another on the topic of character/player relationship.
======
"The unexamined life is not worth living."
-Socrates
"Question everything. Especially Landfish."
-Matt
This topic is closed to new replies.
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