I'm sure all of you (at least the sane ones ) agree that the thing that separates games from other forms of entertainment is interactivity. You can watch a movie, but you can't change the storyline. You can read a book, but you can't do anything about it (unless it's one of those "Choose Your Own Adventure" types). So if it's so different from other mediums, how are you going to write up a story for it? Obviously the linear storyline (which even FF7 suffers from) isn't going to be so great. My solution? A few years ago, when I was into writing short stories, I was always to lazy to write a document showing how the story would progress. So I thought "What if I just start having things happen and let the story evolve as each character came to certain points. Then I'll think of a solution to the character's problems." I never actually tried that in a short story, as in the end I just moved on to game development (or actually, Teach Yourself C in 24 hours ). So in short, what I'm proposing is that we set different events and NPCs all over the place, with their own goals and ambitions. The player will have to move on in the world, and find out for himself what's going on. He can change the story by his actions, sort of like an MMORPG with NPCs instead of players (NPCs are people too! ). This may not work for all types of genres (Tetris and SimCity), but it certainly would work for RPGs... and RTS (what if StarCraft did it this way?). Comments anyone? Is this a great idea or is it just another fit of insanity brought on by reading Landfish posts ()? If you think of a better way of writing up stories, then post them! - DarkMage139 ++++++++++++++++ "Shut up and give me the freakin code" -unknown "Ask and you will be shot" -snes16bit "Not again!" -SHilbert (upon being assimilated) "Nazrix is cool." - Nazrix "You've only seen the beginning" -The Dark Lord of RPGs Edited by - DarkMage139 on 9/6/00 1:48:12 PM

Sorry, DM, but I can''t say I like it. There''s nothing worse in a game than a lackluster ending. So without any kind of story structure at all, how do you plan to pull off a good one?

Hmmm... good point.

- DarkMage139
++++++++++++++++
"Shut up and give me the freakin code" -unknown
"Ask and you will be shot" -snes16bit
"Not again!" -SHilbert (upon being assimilated)
"Nazrix is cool." - Nazrix
"You've only seen the beginning" -The Dark Lord of RPGs

DM,

Have you ever played Daggerfall? That''s sort of how that is.
That''s more or less what I am planning to do with my current project. I am doing it solely to prove to Landfish that it can be done

J/K...I don''t know if it will work, but I am going to try ''cause it''s what I''ve been wanting to do for a long time.





"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

Nazrix, I put Mutable on the Ten Commandmants list just for YOU! Isn''t that sweet?

Yes, I noticed that I almost had a damn heart attack

quote:
"If the game never changes no matter how good or bad you are, no matter what choices you make, you've wasted the most powerful tool interactivity has to offer for your story."

I had to check twice to see who posted that





"NPC's are people too!" --dwarfsoft

"Nazrix is cool." --Nazrix first, then Darkmage

Edited by - Nazrix on September 6, 2000 3:05:40 PM

Greg Costikyan''s latest article in the September 2000 issue of Game Developer magazine should be required reading here. Check it out if you can, it''s really good.

I like his assertion that a game isn''t a story anymore than music is a story. A game can have story, just as musical ballads can. But a game is it''s own stand alone form of entertainment, and the more you become a good story with an awesome ending (as Landfish was asking about) the less you become a game.

Having said that, a 3 points:

1: I like the idea of a story being generated by AI actions inside a dynamic environment. I''m planning on using it for as backstory and background events in my SF RPG game. But you have to accept losing a great deal of authorship with this scheme. You''ll know who is in your environment, but not when, or where they''ll be (let alone how or why). My game is such that this is fine, but yours might not be.

2: Great stories are great because things happen only in a particular way. This probably won''t be possible with what you''re proposing. Instead, some stories will be pointless shaggy dog tales, some will have illogical conclusions, and some will be driven by inscrutible character behavior, particularly if it''s detailed story you''re after. (Check out Chris Crawford''s work at www.erasmatazz.com to see what I''m talking about... he''s been at this for years).

3: Regarding the MMORPG analogy... right now the inputs and outputs that would allow NPCs to create a good story are far too primitive. Forget AI for a second. Gameplay itself is WAAAAY to rudimentary to support much beyond hack&slash murder tales and fedex knight quests. If the NPCs are to behave in a manner that promotes good story, then what they''re able to do has to be much more sophistocated. I think this calls for a simulationist approach, as other people have noted: Dump the players and NPCs into a world system. Make it so that the town really does get destroyed if you don''t help; or that the environment really does change if you kill the king. But don''t prescript this, make it part of a sim.

Then, what you''ll get will be less of a linear story and more of an immersive world.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

I think that''s bull. All games that have a beginning, middle and an end have stories. Every one. in order to have a game, you must have a setup, a conflict and a resolution. Guess what? That''s called a story.

Game and story are NOT opposites, though some would like to believe it. Now, GOOD story? That I don''t know.

quote: Original post by Landfish

I think that's bull.

Okay, now who has the attitude? (BTW, which part???)

quote:
All games that have a beginning, middle and an end have stories. Every one. in order to have a game, you must have a setup, a conflict and a resolution. Guess what? That's called a story.

So, then, Tetris has a story???

If by story you mean randomly strung together events, without purpose or meaning, that have a definitive start point, intermediary point, and end point... then cool!!!! I can feel a lot better about what I plan to inflict on players in the open ended SF RPG I'm designing!

Seriously, I don't think this is story in the traditional sense.

quote:
Game and story are NOT opposites, though some would like to believe it. Now, GOOD story? That I don't know.

Some games and stories are not opposites, I'll agree. Some games require story to give meaning to your actions. The degree to which gameplay and story elements are intertwined is the degree to which you have a great game with a great story.


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Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on September 6, 2000 8:06:31 PM