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easy fantasy
Author
let's see, we need....
bam! pantheon of about 12 gods closely following the Greeks
bam! humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, goblins, halflings
bam! wizards and warriors and thieves
bam! politics?
bam! Dragons and dungeons and gp and swords and maces andandandandandand.....
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I'm fed up with the "writing" I'm seeing in games( and, sadly enough, books ). Obviously, I'm concerned with fantasy.
Which annoys you the most? the eurocentrism? the tolkeinism? the D&D ripping? the complete unconcern for creating a deeper than paper-thin world? or is it just the stereotyping?
Er... The fantasy genre is based loosely on European mythology, which involves most of the elements you're seemingly complaining about. If a game or storyline was based on mythology from non-European cultures it wouldn't be what most people consider to be fantasy.
It's a little like complaining that Westerns are set in the USA, involve cowboys and/or indians, and feature weapons such as the Colt 45 and Winchester rifle, or that science fiction is set in space, on another planet and/or in the future and includes advanced technology.
People generally have very specific preferences when it comes to games or books, and genres help them know what to expect before they try them. If you were able to come up with a completely original background, storyline and premise, it would be a huge gamble for the consumer to try it, particularly if it cost money.
It would also require a lot more background information and explanation in addition to the main storyline. The general public have a much clearer idea of what a mediaeval knight might be like than they would have of an intelligent shade of blue, an amorphous blob of slime or the leader of a microscopic alien space fleet.
It's a little like complaining that Westerns are set in the USA, involve cowboys and/or indians, and feature weapons such as the Colt 45 and Winchester rifle, or that science fiction is set in space, on another planet and/or in the future and includes advanced technology.
People generally have very specific preferences when it comes to games or books, and genres help them know what to expect before they try them. If you were able to come up with a completely original background, storyline and premise, it would be a huge gamble for the consumer to try it, particularly if it cost money.
It would also require a lot more background information and explanation in addition to the main storyline. The general public have a much clearer idea of what a mediaeval knight might be like than they would have of an intelligent shade of blue, an amorphous blob of slime or the leader of a microscopic alien space fleet.
Chokki's right.
Every of the above are annoyable.
Wysardry, "gambling" is the point when you're creating.
If you copy, your creation will obviously be worse than the original (No! It can't be better, no, no, no!).
I already told you, DesignerGuy.
If you want to make people test your game and then regret it, then copy.
If you want to make people like your game, then make it original AND interesting.
As simple as that, for me.
Admiral,
player fed up with standard (almost every new) games.
Quote: Which annoys you the most? the eurocentrism? the tolkeinism? the D&D ripping? the complete unconcern for creating a deeper than paper-thin world? or is it just the stereotyping?
Every of the above are annoyable.
Wysardry, "gambling" is the point when you're creating.
If you copy, your creation will obviously be worse than the original (No! It can't be better, no, no, no!).
I already told you, DesignerGuy.
If you want to make people test your game and then regret it, then copy.
If you want to make people like your game, then make it original AND interesting.
As simple as that, for me.
Admiral,
player fed up with standard (almost every new) games.
I side with Wysardry. You're criticizing the fantasy for being what it is.
The thing that gets me is the fact that you say most fantasy here is Tolkeinistic and D&D-ripping. Well, both Tolkein's works and D&D drew heavy influence from mythology, Christianity, and folklore. As Basho said, "Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." I knew Greek mythology inside and out before I knew what LoTR or D&D is, so I'd be personally offended if you said something I write is Tolkein-esque or D&D ripping. It isn't fair to categorize most things as such, anyway.
And with Admirals comment: "If you copy, your creation will obviously be worse than the original (No! It can't be better, no, no, no!)." I agree, if it's a pure, blatant copy. If your creation draws heavily from multiple things, it can be great. (Wanna example? Star Wars Origins.)
The thing that gets me is the fact that you say most fantasy here is Tolkeinistic and D&D-ripping. Well, both Tolkein's works and D&D drew heavy influence from mythology, Christianity, and folklore. As Basho said, "Seek not to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought." I knew Greek mythology inside and out before I knew what LoTR or D&D is, so I'd be personally offended if you said something I write is Tolkein-esque or D&D ripping. It isn't fair to categorize most things as such, anyway.
And with Admirals comment: "If you copy, your creation will obviously be worse than the original (No! It can't be better, no, no, no!)." I agree, if it's a pure, blatant copy. If your creation draws heavily from multiple things, it can be great. (Wanna example? Star Wars Origins.)
Sorry Wysardry and OrionX, but I'll have to vehemently disagree. Tolkien and Dungeons&Dragons may be some of the most popular kinds of fantasy, but they certainly do not define the genre. I would define fantasy as being the modern, novelized form of mythology. It portrays a world in which the world operates according to a hidden spiritual order (usually having something to do with animism and sympathy (the magical kind, not the emotional kind). The characters in fantasy are usually archetypal particularly including a solar hero who wields military and magical force to fight evil monsters which symbolize chaos that threatens the ordeliness of the mundane human world. The hero endure tests and trials to earn 'blessings' from gods or other authority figures, usually by demonstrating his courage and resistance of temptation. But most importantly, fantasy is fiction which portrays the world as behaving in a 'spiritually sensitive', non-rational, magickal, animistic, anthropomorphic way because this is the way the human subconscious thinks the world ought to work, much like the world of dreams.
Fantasy in primitive forms has existed in the mythology of every country, and the only reason we see tons of elves and dragons is that these were folk beliefs of Britain and we are reading fantasy written in English by people who have grown up in countries heavily influenced by British cultural imperialism. It's fine to work inside this tradition if you aren't sick and tired of it, but personally I think a writer can accomplish much more interesting things in creating fantasy if they study the mythology of the various cultures of the world and then use their personal interests and individual perspective to synthesize a unique and original fantasy world with it's own magical system and mythology.
Don't forget that when Tolkien was creating the _Lord of the Rings_ his intent was to collect and breathe new life into British mythology - it was a work of national pride in the face of war. Now, I personally am more interested in globalism and personal creativity, so in the book I'm writing I've created a personal totem system which is most closely related to that of some Native American and Australian Aboriginal tribes, but has also been influenced by the Greek zodiac, the Chinese zodiac, Latin and medieval European bestiaries, and Aztec mythology.
Fantasy in primitive forms has existed in the mythology of every country, and the only reason we see tons of elves and dragons is that these were folk beliefs of Britain and we are reading fantasy written in English by people who have grown up in countries heavily influenced by British cultural imperialism. It's fine to work inside this tradition if you aren't sick and tired of it, but personally I think a writer can accomplish much more interesting things in creating fantasy if they study the mythology of the various cultures of the world and then use their personal interests and individual perspective to synthesize a unique and original fantasy world with it's own magical system and mythology.
Don't forget that when Tolkien was creating the _Lord of the Rings_ his intent was to collect and breathe new life into British mythology - it was a work of national pride in the face of war. Now, I personally am more interested in globalism and personal creativity, so in the book I'm writing I've created a personal totem system which is most closely related to that of some Native American and Australian Aboriginal tribes, but has also been influenced by the Greek zodiac, the Chinese zodiac, Latin and medieval European bestiaries, and Aztec mythology.
Ahh, Mare, my favorite atheist...
If you look at what I said, I never said LoTR and D&D define the genre. I don't think I implied it, because I don't believe they do. They are, though, prime examples of stereotypical, mythology-based fantasy.
I like to use a wide variety of mythology in what I write. Personally, I prefer Asian mythology over Western. I never really liked to use Native American or South American mythologies, though. There's not as much resources on them, I don't believe, and most of them are simply too complex for my liking.
If you look at what I said, I never said LoTR and D&D define the genre. I don't think I implied it, because I don't believe they do. They are, though, prime examples of stereotypical, mythology-based fantasy.
I like to use a wide variety of mythology in what I write. Personally, I prefer Asian mythology over Western. I never really liked to use Native American or South American mythologies, though. There's not as much resources on them, I don't believe, and most of them are simply too complex for my liking.
I totally agree with both sunandshadow.
I was not saying I dislike fantasy genre. Actually, I've been playing paper role playing games for more that ten years now, and I still really enjoy swords-and-sorcery (médiéval-fantastique in french).
I think creating a new atmosphere usually requires creating new elements. But of course, you may draw elements from almost everything. Actually, I think it's inevitable.
I just want to say I usually prefer a game in which the authors have made a real effort to create an original atmosphere, for example "Rêve de Dragon" ("Reves: the Dream Ouroboros" in english).
Creating a fantasy background does not imply including Tolkien elements, Science Fiction does not require hyperspace propulsion, etc.
I would say you may use existing elements, if they fit VERY well in the universe you want to create. But you should not use them to create it.
With that in mind, you may build something very original or not, that's a choice.
My point is very original universes have less chances to be boring.
Admiral,
I'm sorry if my english's not good. I'm french after all.
I was not saying I dislike fantasy genre. Actually, I've been playing paper role playing games for more that ten years now, and I still really enjoy swords-and-sorcery (médiéval-fantastique in french).
Quote:
If your creation draws heavily from multiple things, it can be great.
I think creating a new atmosphere usually requires creating new elements. But of course, you may draw elements from almost everything. Actually, I think it's inevitable.
I just want to say I usually prefer a game in which the authors have made a real effort to create an original atmosphere, for example "Rêve de Dragon" ("Reves: the Dream Ouroboros" in english).
Creating a fantasy background does not imply including Tolkien elements, Science Fiction does not require hyperspace propulsion, etc.
I would say you may use existing elements, if they fit VERY well in the universe you want to create. But you should not use them to create it.
With that in mind, you may build something very original or not, that's a choice.
My point is very original universes have less chances to be boring.
Admiral,
I'm sorry if my english's not good. I'm french after all.
Personally I think what we have to remember is that there is a stereotypical view of Fantasy these days. And that is the whole Tolkien-type fantasy is the most popular Genre.
To say that Tolkien doesn't define the Fantasy Genre is like saying that the Rolling Stones don't define rock and roll. To define a genre the party in question must have innovated the genre enough for it to take on an existence of its own. That is what Tolkien did because before Tolkien there was no real type of fantasy fictional literature. There may have been myths but those can’t really be considered fantasy literature because of the fact that it was viewed as an actual event. For all those considering flaming me, consider this. During the time when those stories were created people were more interested in the deeds that were actually done by a person than a fictitious character. They may be massive exaggerations but they do have basis in reality. While Tolkien’s work is a creation of pure fiction. It may not have been the first of its kind but it was the most influential.
But I’m not saying that all fantasy should be written by taking all of the same elements of Tolkien’s world and using them. There are certain elements that do need to be there though. The mythical existence does need to be there, you don’t necessarily need to have Dragons and Elves, but you do need some sort of supernatural existence in this world. Other than that everything should be up to you in how you present your world and how your world develops.
I personally have been writing a fantasy story-line for a couple of years now that encompasses millennia of a world’s development and I don’t use the same exact same things as Tolkien, but I do draw from some of the same sources he does. I don’t use Elves and Dragons, but I do use other supernatural elements. I am basically doing what Sunandshadow suggested where I am drawing from certain elements of mythology and using my own ideas as the basis for the writing.
[Edited by - Terlenth on August 17, 2004 7:47:34 AM]
To say that Tolkien doesn't define the Fantasy Genre is like saying that the Rolling Stones don't define rock and roll. To define a genre the party in question must have innovated the genre enough for it to take on an existence of its own. That is what Tolkien did because before Tolkien there was no real type of fantasy fictional literature. There may have been myths but those can’t really be considered fantasy literature because of the fact that it was viewed as an actual event. For all those considering flaming me, consider this. During the time when those stories were created people were more interested in the deeds that were actually done by a person than a fictitious character. They may be massive exaggerations but they do have basis in reality. While Tolkien’s work is a creation of pure fiction. It may not have been the first of its kind but it was the most influential.
But I’m not saying that all fantasy should be written by taking all of the same elements of Tolkien’s world and using them. There are certain elements that do need to be there though. The mythical existence does need to be there, you don’t necessarily need to have Dragons and Elves, but you do need some sort of supernatural existence in this world. Other than that everything should be up to you in how you present your world and how your world develops.
I personally have been writing a fantasy story-line for a couple of years now that encompasses millennia of a world’s development and I don’t use the same exact same things as Tolkien, but I do draw from some of the same sources he does. I don’t use Elves and Dragons, but I do use other supernatural elements. I am basically doing what Sunandshadow suggested where I am drawing from certain elements of mythology and using my own ideas as the basis for the writing.
[Edited by - Terlenth on August 17, 2004 7:47:34 AM]
AdMiRaL: I don't know whether you're aware of this, but there is a finite number of possible plots for works of fiction (some scholars believe this number to be as low as 3). The likelihood of someone producing anything 100% original is therefore extremely small.
Many thousands of new books are released each and every year though.
Even if you did come up with something totally and completely original, it would seem so unfamiliar that most people wouldn't be able to get to grips with it.
sunandshadow: I wasn't trying to implay that Tolkien or D&D define the genre, but they do include many of the elements that do. In other words, if you don't include any of the elements from either of them, there won't be many that you can include and still call it fantasy.
Almost every aspect of the definition you gave of fantasy is included in Tolkien's books and/or D&D games. There's more than one D&D campaign setting.
As for the mythological aspects being based purely on British folk beliefs and/or mythology, I feel that I should point out that these are in turn based upon those of Celtic, Saxon, Roman and Greek origin, as well as many other European cultures from history.
The people who originally held these beliefs travelled through Europe to reach Britain, which goes some way to explain why stories based upon them strike a chord with the people currently living there and in the USA (many Americans having roots in Europe).
The fantasy genre is really a more sophisticated version of the fairy tale, which means that the basic concepts are instilled in us at a very early age.
A number of authors and game writers have attempted to create fantasy-like stories based on other cultures and/or belief systems with limited success. They were not widely accepted, for a number of reasons.
Most belief systems have common elements, and if the author/writer has been brought up learning something similar, the end results tend to be (viewed as) a standard fantasy tale with a thin "alien culture" veneer over it.
Examples of this can be seen in almost any mainstream movie, game or novel set in Ancient Egypt.
Cries of "I'm bored with standard fantasy, I want more RPGs set in other genres and/or no dragons and wizards in them" are heard/seen on a regular basis. However, even though there are so few games like that available, they tend not to sell as well as their "traditional" counterparts. The few exceptions have been good games in their own right and/or based upon a popular movie/novel.
Even if you were successful in your attempt to create a storyline with fantasy elements yet based upon non-European belief systems, it wouldn't be categorised as "fantasy". At best, it would be a sub-genre or subcategory, such as "Egyptian Fantasy" or "Fantasy, Egyptian" (depending on the cataloguing/categorization system used).
Many thousands of new books are released each and every year though.
Even if you did come up with something totally and completely original, it would seem so unfamiliar that most people wouldn't be able to get to grips with it.
sunandshadow: I wasn't trying to implay that Tolkien or D&D define the genre, but they do include many of the elements that do. In other words, if you don't include any of the elements from either of them, there won't be many that you can include and still call it fantasy.
Almost every aspect of the definition you gave of fantasy is included in Tolkien's books and/or D&D games. There's more than one D&D campaign setting.
As for the mythological aspects being based purely on British folk beliefs and/or mythology, I feel that I should point out that these are in turn based upon those of Celtic, Saxon, Roman and Greek origin, as well as many other European cultures from history.
The people who originally held these beliefs travelled through Europe to reach Britain, which goes some way to explain why stories based upon them strike a chord with the people currently living there and in the USA (many Americans having roots in Europe).
The fantasy genre is really a more sophisticated version of the fairy tale, which means that the basic concepts are instilled in us at a very early age.
A number of authors and game writers have attempted to create fantasy-like stories based on other cultures and/or belief systems with limited success. They were not widely accepted, for a number of reasons.
Most belief systems have common elements, and if the author/writer has been brought up learning something similar, the end results tend to be (viewed as) a standard fantasy tale with a thin "alien culture" veneer over it.
Examples of this can be seen in almost any mainstream movie, game or novel set in Ancient Egypt.
Cries of "I'm bored with standard fantasy, I want more RPGs set in other genres and/or no dragons and wizards in them" are heard/seen on a regular basis. However, even though there are so few games like that available, they tend not to sell as well as their "traditional" counterparts. The few exceptions have been good games in their own right and/or based upon a popular movie/novel.
Even if you were successful in your attempt to create a storyline with fantasy elements yet based upon non-European belief systems, it wouldn't be categorised as "fantasy". At best, it would be a sub-genre or subcategory, such as "Egyptian Fantasy" or "Fantasy, Egyptian" (depending on the cataloguing/categorization system used).
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