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the perfect story
Author
What elements does the perfect story, for a game or otherwise, absolutely need to have?
My shopping list:
-Snappy, witty dialogue
-A love story
-A happy ending
-Humor
-Surprising and intriguing ideas
-Philosophy
-People psychoanalyzing and manipulating each other
-An ethical dilemma
-A dragon
Sorry ot say s&s, but I fundamentally disagree with some of the items on that list... but never fear, that simply throws light on the fact that tastes differ. People are different, and so a story can only be perfect insofar as it is perfect for one person!
I''ve yet to see a story that I would consider perfect, but I don''t know if I want to. It might ruin everything else for me!
I''ve yet to see a story that I would consider perfect, but I don''t know if I want to. It might ruin everything else for me!
I pretty much agree with Landfish. Different people like differnt types of stories. One thing I have noticed though is that a lot of the movies I consider really great have a main theme of a fundamental emotion or ... feeling... like The Shawshank Redemtion (Hope), or Contact (Faith). Of course neither of these movies would make too great of video games but they are still great none the less. One video game that comes to mind is Metal Gear Solid. I guess thats a little different, but you could say the overall ''theme'' is the morality of war. I find the best stories come from concepts like these. I think it gives the viewer/gamer the feeling that they came out of the movie/game with more than they came in with. Not just a fun time playing a game or watching a movie but a different perspective on part of life.
I don''t really know a lot about writing, but I don''t really see why a story would have to have many of these things. I don''t think a love story has to be included for it to be good.
A "happy" ending is kind of subjective, but I don''t think every story needs that either. There''s so many Shakespeare stories that end in trajedy. I realize that there''s the element of a greater good that usually accompanies the tradgedy, but that''s where the subjective part comes in.
"'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree
A "happy" ending is kind of subjective, but I don''t think every story needs that either. There''s so many Shakespeare stories that end in trajedy. I realize that there''s the element of a greater good that usually accompanies the tradgedy, but that''s where the subjective part comes in.
"'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree
quote: Original post by sunandshadow
-Snappy, witty dialogue
This depends very much on the theme of the game. "Snappy" and "witty" don''t suit a cyberpunk game so well.
quote: -A love story
-A happy ending
-Humor
Again, theme. I''m using the same example: happy ending is no-no in cyberpunk, as is humor, though it might be a love story. If so, it would be a tragic one. Blade Runner Director''s cut ending was kind of happy, though tragic at the same time. The original version''s ending was crap.
quote: -Surprising and intriguing ideas
-Philosophy
-People psychoanalyzing and manipulating each other
-An ethical dilemma
Of course. It was sort of cool to have philosophic conversations with an AI in Deus Ex.
quote: -A dragon
Err...
I don''t know about perfect, but here are a few games with good stories:
- Deus Ex (though clichéd)
- Final Fantasy 7 (clichéd)
- Gabriel Knight 1 & 3 (haven''t played 2)
- Full Throttle
- The Dig
-Jussi
"Les gouts et les couleurs, ca ne se discute pas" (tastes and colours are not a thing you discuss).
Let''s see, my top three movies must be "The name of the rose", "The seven samurai", "Silence of the Lambs".
In those you get :
-troubled love story. Not a merry one, not necessarily dramatic neither, something real if you want. In the name of the rose, a apprentice monk loses his virginity to a peasant that later get burnt at the stake as a witch :/ The love he discovers make him understand better his own love of god.
In the seven samurai, Katsuchiro (if I remember), the young samurai eager to become as good as his master, fall in love with the daughter of one of the peasants. Not the proper place, nor the proper moment ...
In the Silence of the lambs, well, I dunno if it''s a love story, byt personally I just love this ambiguity between Clarice and Dr Lecter ... OK I am a pervert
Dialogs, yep. I like verbose ones though. the book "Name of the Rose" is the deepest, thickest stuff I ever tasted. Even thicker than a pint of Guinness ... the first time I actually had to read a book with my dictionary next to me (a dictionary of Latin, mind you )
Silence of the Lambs, well, Clarice and Lecter again ... "I ate his livers with a nice chianti, and some beans and butter" aaaah
seven samurai ... well, it''s something about the japanese langage. it just turns me on, for some strange reason.
OK, I won''t go on, but basically those three movies summarize pretty well.
I like uplifting stuff, as artsy fartsy as that may sound. I crie like a wimp when I watched Kenneth Brannagh "Henri 5th" (the saint Crespin speech, especially), I was entranced by the intro of Saving Private Ryan, I was daydreaming on the Thin Red Line (this movie, is just ... mesmerizing).
I can watch Romeo and Juliet (the one with decaprio, not because of him, but, ah well, you know the one) countless times, and every time I''ll get my spine all tickly ...uhhhh
globally, I think when I can feel something *deep* in a movie, I am usually pretty happy, and it will stay a long long time in memory. For instance, Ghost in the shell (I am just listening to the soundtrack), is one of those movies...
all the movies of Kurosawa I have seen are in this category (there is something in the eyes of the actors that is just perfect)...
ah well, I keep rambling and ramnbling.
Just one thing, I don''t care whether it end good or bad, but I don''t want Hollywood endings. Though most of the movies I adore have no real good ending. usually it''s more ambiguous : the apprentice goes on and abandon the young woman (in the NAme of the rose, the movie, not the book). The samurai have won, but to what cost, and what was the point (seven samurai). Clarice did a good job, but so what ? And Lecter is now free ...
Oh, I''ll add just one item on your list : a deep, meaningful (as in, not gratuitous), passionate love scene.
youpla :-P
Let''s see, my top three movies must be "The name of the rose", "The seven samurai", "Silence of the Lambs".
In those you get :
-troubled love story. Not a merry one, not necessarily dramatic neither, something real if you want. In the name of the rose, a apprentice monk loses his virginity to a peasant that later get burnt at the stake as a witch :/ The love he discovers make him understand better his own love of god.
In the seven samurai, Katsuchiro (if I remember), the young samurai eager to become as good as his master, fall in love with the daughter of one of the peasants. Not the proper place, nor the proper moment ...
In the Silence of the lambs, well, I dunno if it''s a love story, byt personally I just love this ambiguity between Clarice and Dr Lecter ... OK I am a pervert
Dialogs, yep. I like verbose ones though. the book "Name of the Rose" is the deepest, thickest stuff I ever tasted. Even thicker than a pint of Guinness ... the first time I actually had to read a book with my dictionary next to me (a dictionary of Latin, mind you
)Silence of the Lambs, well, Clarice and Lecter again ... "I ate his livers with a nice chianti, and some beans and butter" aaaah
seven samurai ... well, it''s something about the japanese langage. it just turns me on, for some strange reason.
OK, I won''t go on, but basically those three movies summarize pretty well.
I like uplifting stuff, as artsy fartsy as that may sound. I crie like a wimp when I watched Kenneth Brannagh "Henri 5th" (the saint Crespin speech, especially), I was entranced by the intro of Saving Private Ryan, I was daydreaming on the Thin Red Line (this movie, is just ... mesmerizing).
I can watch Romeo and Juliet (the one with decaprio, not because of him, but, ah well, you know the one) countless times, and every time I''ll get my spine all tickly ...uhhhh
globally, I think when I can feel something *deep* in a movie, I am usually pretty happy, and it will stay a long long time in memory. For instance, Ghost in the shell (I am just listening to the soundtrack), is one of those movies...
all the movies of Kurosawa I have seen are in this category (there is something in the eyes of the actors that is just perfect)...
ah well, I keep rambling and ramnbling.
Just one thing, I don''t care whether it end good or bad, but I don''t want Hollywood endings. Though most of the movies I adore have no real good ending. usually it''s more ambiguous : the apprentice goes on and abandon the young woman (in the NAme of the rose, the movie, not the book). The samurai have won, but to what cost, and what was the point (seven samurai). Clarice did a good job, but so what ? And Lecter is now free ...
Oh, I''ll add just one item on your list : a deep, meaningful (as in, not gratuitous), passionate love scene.
youpla :-P
Author
Well, if no one''s going to post anything I''ll dredge up some old threads that never got discussed to their full potential. Post your wish lists here people!
Wow ! You scared me for a minute ! I thought the Landfish was back !
Guess it would be ridiculous for me to post yet again, since I was the last to post ?
I reread it, mmmmh, I still pretty much agree with all I said before, except now you have to add Gladiator to the list of my favorites !
And guess what, there is no happy ending, it''s much more like a classic greek tragedy; and honestly, I prefer that a hundred times more than the original movie (yes, there was a peplum in the 60''s that told the same story!)
The characters are simple but evocative. Their psychology is not detailed like in a book, but yet, you get the idea of what they are really easily; they are archetypes, just like in classic drama.
Another change I want to make is the importance of humour. I had the occasion to read 10 of Terry Pratchett''s Discworld''s novels, and I have to say they are the funniest thing I have read in years. And yet the story is interesting, and some moral issues are dealt with in a very witty fashion. It reminds me of Moliere (a French XVIII century drama writer, specialised in satire and comedies) in that the humour comes first, but there is always issues being discussed at some stage, with some very philosophical thoughts here and there.
Besides, a bit humour is always good to give some rythm to the story (I believe). Sometimes, when everything goes wrong, a story can just get overwhelming.
Anyway ... well, I posted again.
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
Guess it would be ridiculous for me to post yet again, since I was the last to post ?
I reread it, mmmmh, I still pretty much agree with all I said before, except now you have to add Gladiator to the list of my favorites !
And guess what, there is no happy ending, it''s much more like a classic greek tragedy; and honestly, I prefer that a hundred times more than the original movie (yes, there was a peplum in the 60''s that told the same story!)
The characters are simple but evocative. Their psychology is not detailed like in a book, but yet, you get the idea of what they are really easily; they are archetypes, just like in classic drama.
Another change I want to make is the importance of humour. I had the occasion to read 10 of Terry Pratchett''s Discworld''s novels, and I have to say they are the funniest thing I have read in years. And yet the story is interesting, and some moral issues are dealt with in a very witty fashion. It reminds me of Moliere (a French XVIII century drama writer, specialised in satire and comedies) in that the humour comes first, but there is always issues being discussed at some stage, with some very philosophical thoughts here and there.
Besides, a bit humour is always good to give some rythm to the story (I believe). Sometimes, when everything goes wrong, a story can just get overwhelming.
Anyway ... well, I posted again.
Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !
A plot twist! Preferably more than 1. Not much point having a story if you know how it''s gonna go when you''re 1/2 way through.
Depth of characterization. Interesting and believable characters can turn otherwise empty stories into good ones (I think the Lethal Weapon movies are a good example of this).
Apart from that, it descends more into personal preferences.
I prefer less humour and more darkness. Badly-placed jokes ruin the atmosphere, and to me, atmosphere is key. Jokes should be something done if the characterization and situation has it making sense, not as something the author uses to amuse me. And fluffy things or cartoon-like things don''t carry much weight with me, although this is more a problem with stories in visual form. If something is too cute or too unreal, I don''t feel as attached to it and therefore am not drawn into the story as much.
On a similar note, overly moralistic, patriotic, or clichéd endings annoy me. I don''t read to be preached to. I like stories that make me think, but stories that can be summed up as "Drugs are bad" or "Killing is bad" or "War is bad" or "Bad people are bad" both bore and annoy me. I don''t want a black-and-white story, even under the usual veil of "well, you think it''s white, but actually it''s black" that many of these preaching stories go by. I want to see shades of grey and I want to see them through different people''s eyes.
I like things to not always be apparent. Some of the best ''bad guys'' in stories are people or entities you can''t see. And sometimes the bad guys answer to someone else who is even more hidden. This makes ''winning'' seem even less likely, more hopeless. In turn, it makes it more satisfying when the good guys succeed.
Sacrifice is good. There''s little like the sacrifice of an important character to produce empathy with the others. It raises the stakes and makes everything more important.
And that''s about it.
Depth of characterization. Interesting and believable characters can turn otherwise empty stories into good ones (I think the Lethal Weapon movies are a good example of this).
Apart from that, it descends more into personal preferences.
I prefer less humour and more darkness. Badly-placed jokes ruin the atmosphere, and to me, atmosphere is key. Jokes should be something done if the characterization and situation has it making sense, not as something the author uses to amuse me. And fluffy things or cartoon-like things don''t carry much weight with me, although this is more a problem with stories in visual form. If something is too cute or too unreal, I don''t feel as attached to it and therefore am not drawn into the story as much.
On a similar note, overly moralistic, patriotic, or clichéd endings annoy me. I don''t read to be preached to. I like stories that make me think, but stories that can be summed up as "Drugs are bad" or "Killing is bad" or "War is bad" or "Bad people are bad" both bore and annoy me. I don''t want a black-and-white story, even under the usual veil of "well, you think it''s white, but actually it''s black" that many of these preaching stories go by. I want to see shades of grey and I want to see them through different people''s eyes.
I like things to not always be apparent. Some of the best ''bad guys'' in stories are people or entities you can''t see. And sometimes the bad guys answer to someone else who is even more hidden. This makes ''winning'' seem even less likely, more hopeless. In turn, it makes it more satisfying when the good guys succeed.
Sacrifice is good. There''s little like the sacrifice of an important character to produce empathy with the others. It raises the stakes and makes everything more important.
And that''s about it.
To tell you the truth, I have never played a perfect game. Of all of the games I have ever played, the closest to perfect were Final Fantasy 7 & 9.
I am not satisfied easily, though, so there probably will never be a perfect game in my eyes. To tell you the truth, I like games that can be as realistic as possible in a fantasy setting. There has to be a love story, or a friendship story. The storyline better be the greatest it could possibly be to suite the main idea, or it automatically will not be perfect.
It should have sub missions, and not just focus on one main journey throughout the whole game. You should be allowed to be a bystander or witness of another crime, or even help them commit it.
I came up with my own "hybrid" genre, I call it Nameless It is a combination of a simulation, an adventure game, an RPG, and a strategy game. It combines all of the elements of these main genres, leaving a few things out from each, of course, and not focusing on only one.
I have been working on design docs for a game like this for a month, and I don''t plan on having them finsihed for acouple years. It will be perfect or I will not create it.
I think that most people aren''t really serios about perfectign a game, they are more into making sure it reaches out to a certain crowd of people in what seems perfect to them and nobody else.
But what really sucks is that "there is no place in the industry for writers."
"I''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''Urden
I am not satisfied easily, though, so there probably will never be a perfect game in my eyes. To tell you the truth, I like games that can be as realistic as possible in a fantasy setting. There has to be a love story, or a friendship story. The storyline better be the greatest it could possibly be to suite the main idea, or it automatically will not be perfect.
It should have sub missions, and not just focus on one main journey throughout the whole game. You should be allowed to be a bystander or witness of another crime, or even help them commit it.
I came up with my own "hybrid" genre, I call it Nameless
It is a combination of a simulation, an adventure game, an RPG, and a strategy game. It combines all of the elements of these main genres, leaving a few things out from each, of course, and not focusing on only one.I have been working on design docs for a game like this for a month, and I don''t plan on having them finsihed for acouple years. It will be perfect or I will not create it.
I think that most people aren''t really serios about perfectign a game, they are more into making sure it reaches out to a certain crowd of people in what seems perfect to them and nobody else.
But what really sucks is that "there is no place in the industry for writers."
"I''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''Urden
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