If what ''experts'' say is true, a lot of us out here/there love being involved in fantasy worlds because it gives us an escape from reality (but then... isn''t the computer and all its games part of reality... which means, that it is no escape but merely a ''using'' of reality?). Also, there''s the term ''role-playing-game'' (RPG). In my humble layman opinion, so far, the computer games I''ve played have not really used the ''role'' part of rpg. Usually ''role'' could (should) be replaced by ''fight''. Sure, there''s the ''fight, gain wisdom (experience), learn and get better(gain levels)'' but that''s all just to keep fitting the ''role'' of fighter. It''s been a question running around in my little brain, what type of roles players would want to adopt in a virtual world. Would people want to be explorers? Preachers? Guards? Farmers? Scientists? Carpenters? And I don''t mean ''carpenter'' just to make some extra cash, needed to buy that awesome weapon that the vendor over there is selling. I mean, be carpenter for an entire week, constructing tables, chairs, or maybe even an entire house. I realize that being just a carpenter is not something to look forward to, so if a game tries to really give a player options to play roles instead of play ''whack'', there should be enough choices for a player to make to keep the game interesting over a long period of time. What''s the role you would be interested playing?

I think part of the reason that every RPG ''role'' is that of some kind of a fighter is that the majority of the RPG games out there put you in a world where 90% (probably an exageration I know) of the NPC''s (Non-player Characters) are looking for a fight and dont want to talk (partly because the more conversational pieces you have the more sound files are required [as everyone would rather hear the voice rather than read off the screen.. its kinder on the eyes if not the ears for a start]).

Another part of this is the experience model itself, the gaining of experience, is usually only based upon how many (and how tough) NPC''s you''ve bumped off. One model that may prevent this is to have different classes of player (roles) to gain experience in different ways. To use your role examples... a Scientist may gain experience the more ''potions'' or ''discoveries'' he makes, a carpenter by the ammount and complexity of the furniture he''s made, etc.


I think the roles players choose to play would be entirly dependent upon that person, however I expect that the majority of the people would choose to play some kind of combat type unit.

Altough I would prefer playing a wizard or warrior over a carpenter or scientist. I think that the idea of a game being centered around playing a castle guard could be very interesting. Politics in the guard, fights, patroling around the castle where you could overhear or oversee bits of local life which would hint to mysteries revolving around the countryside whuich might threaten the crown which you have to foil. The game could be divided into Days instead of levels or stages, where each day a certain set of event happens, the player might or might not be part of these events, and depending on what the player does the outcome of the came changes.

Hi,

The main reason for not adding more non-combat character types to MMORPGs is mainly marketing and limited resources. Game companies assume, and rightly so, that the vast majority of the people that will buy their games will mainly be interested in playing combative character classes. Most people, when they roleplay, don''t want to play the average guy. They want to be heros. There is small, highly devoted and vocal, group of roleplayers that wants to play things like bakers and carpenters all the time, but most people don''t care.

A nice way to get around this would be to add non-combat proficiencies to the characters (like cooking and carpentry). This allows people that just want to cook to focus on that rather than their combat abilities. However, as NightWraith said, in order to really give people the ability to roleplay non-combat professions they have to be able to gain experience and to level with these non-combat abilities.

Asheron''s Call does this to a great extent, however I''ve got some problems with the way they do it. The first is that they have an exteremly limited number of non-combat profession abilities (cooking, fletching, alchemey). The second is that if they couldn''t find a way to make a non-combat proficiency be of some use in a combat situation then they didn''t implement it. I think this is a real loss. Any time you implement a proficiency that effects combat its going to require a decent ammount of effort to make sure that the gameplay stays balanced. This limits the number of profiencies that can be added due to time constraints. Non-combat related proficiencies would be much easier to add and would make serious roleplayers happy.

One beef I have with all of the MMORPGs out right now is the poor or non existant implementation of thieves and bards. These are two of the best "roleplaying" character classes that a straight Tolkienesk RPG can have. Neither class is incredibly powerfull in melee combat or magic (except for in EQ where bards have magic abilities that I personally think makes them too mi\uch like mages). They both, if properly implemented, should require the player to _think_ his or her way out of situations rather than blasting their way out like a tank mage or a tank fighter would. Each class has an added element to their personality that makes them more than just combat characters (the thief gets to slink around and try his/her best to avoid combat and the bard, if properly implemented, could totally avoid combat all-together and just roam the countryside playing music and telling stories).

I have a friend that gave up on AC and switched back to EQ just because he likes to play a bard. Even on EQ he rarely advances in level because he''d much rather wander around exploring, talking to people, and performing. In my opinion, EQ doesn''t do a good job implementing bards thought. It''d be really nice if bards could actually "play" music kinda like in Zelda64 where the player can actually use the ocarina as a real instrument by pressing buttons on the keypad.

As for thieves, they''re in an even worse situation than bards. Most of the MMORPGs are so afraid that their players will be annoyed by having their pockets picked that they''ve totally gutted the thief class when the bother to implement it at all. There has to be a better way to actually implement a decent thief. For instance, most MMORPGS implement some kind of belt pouch system so that things are immediately available with hotkeys. Why not limit a theif''s pickpocket ability to just that beltpouch. Or, just let them pick the pockets of NPCs.

Well, thats my $0.02.

Nightwraith: Actually, concidering how combat based today''s MMORPGs are I wouldn''t be surprised if 90% were an accurate figure.

P.S. - As for my personal preference in charcters to play, I tend to like playing bards. At least thats my preference in real pen & paper RPGs. When it comes to MMORPGs I tend to play mages or fighters because they tend to be hack and slash fests anyway. ;-)

-Daedalus

Whatever role you play, I think there needs to be some challenge. Unless you''re catering exclusively to escapists, who just want a virtual alternative to reality for awhile, you need to focus on what makes any role challenging and fun.

One thing to consider is all the parts that make a job interesting. For instance, if you could role-play a doctor, can you make the gameplay as interesting and engrossing as combat? To compete, you need to really find out what''s fun, what''s boring, then create supporting gameplay brings that fun to the forefront.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by Wavinator

One thing to consider is all the parts that make a job interesting. For instance, if you could role-play a doctor, can you make the gameplay as interesting and engrossing as combat? To compete, you need to really find out what''s fun, what''s boring, then create supporting gameplay brings that fun to the forefront.

I believe medical thrillers would be the source of inspiration for playing a doctor. A ''medical'' game would not be about operating on patients. Rather, it would be about uncovering a sinister plot within the hospital you work, digging up information in basements, evading murderous thugs hired by the sinister plot perpetrators, finding an anti-virus to that virus they just inflicted on you. Not really an RPG type game, but still...

Well, besides the option of being a carpenter for a while (which, with an in-game editor that let''s you design your own house and furniture etc, might actually be fun), I was thinking more in the ways of:

explorer
priest
guard
scientist
politician

things like that.

I''m wondering what sort of things a game would have to support in order for players to break away from the thing they do in all other games already (kill monsters). I for one would love to be able to start exploring a world and being able to actually name certain undiscovered parts. Silvermyst Lakes...

Or to be a priest, trying to gain followers in order to make my deity stronger, my allies spells more powerful, and my enemies weaker.

I''d like to take on the role of guard, making sure crime doesn''t pay in my neighborhood. Or perhaps crime DOES pay... ME! Bribes might be just what I need to support my expensive habit of collecting rare artifacts...

Could I be the politician to take my village to the next level. Can I make it into the city of splendour that I want it to be?

I really think combat will (and should) always be a part of a game like this. Actually, I myself find combat usually the most interesting part. I just think that combat becomes better if you make the alternatives to combat better. Otherwise it just becomes the only option you have, and thus becomes less of a personal choice.

A part I''ve always loved to play is the restless trouble seeker...

Not a role, per-se, but I''ve had lots of fun, playing a 7 foot troll with a really bad attitude in Earthdawn. Half the time, it never even got to a fight, I played so hard that half the people playing with me got scared .

Not that this particular troll was a bad person. Just a very, very short temper.

It would be great to have WORKING bullying tactics in a game, and that''s not even that far from combat.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

quote: Original post by Silvermyst

Well, besides the option of being a carpenter for a while (which, with an in-game editor that let''s you design your own house and furniture etc, might actually be fun), I was thinking more in the ways of:

explorer
priest
guard
scientist
politician

things like that.

I''m wondering what sort of things a game would have to support in order for players to break away from the thing they do in all other games already (kill monsters).

I have some ideas here. But with each and every one of them, you need to turn them into a (say amen if you know what I''m gonna preach... ) a system .

If you think about combat, you''ll see it''s a system made up of resources (health, ammo...); parts that relate to each other in special ways (tactical positions, number of foes...); and rules that govern them all (hit conditions, movement regulations...).

So take the explorer. What interesting decisions does he have? What resources can he manage? How does the game itself (as a system) relate to his choices? How do you win? How do you lose?

Example: Food and supplies are probably finite resources. Endurance or morale of the explorer''s party could be another. Interesting choices might be routes of varying quality, and rumors of varying quality ("some say the fountain of youth lies yonder..."). You might also introduce dangers in the form of hostile natives, animals, or monsters; more radically, you could put in game mechanics for negotiating terrain itself (rafting, mountain climbing-- this I''d like to see)

You also need to look at win / lose conditions, and rewards and penalties. Are you exploring against the clock, trying to beat another team? Or is it you against the elements?

The other careers lend themselves to this type of analysis, but you''ve (IMHO) got to think of how they work, what elements they have, and strategies that lead to success or failure.

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Just waiting for the mothership...