I have some thoughts on how to do stealth for a 3D iso space game. Comments or criticism would be most appreciated. It's a bit longish, but I've tried to format it and be quick to the point. Gameboard The game map is a star system with planetary bodies, stations, ships and satellites. The player's goal is to sneak past defenses (patrols, sensor nets) in order to rendezvous, steal something, or gather info. ------- Resources There are four ways to detect someone: Visual, Signature ID, Emissions, and Gravitic. Visual is tied to what your ship looks like. Signature is based on your ship's IFF (friend or foe) beacon. Emissions are based on energy output (shields, engines). Gravitic is based on ship's mass. Visual can be changed only by getting a different ship, or generating a hologram. Signature ID can be faked or stolen from another ship. Faked is easier, but more risky. Stolen requires boarding another ship and stealing it's beacon. All pirated ships are logged after awhile as either missing or robbed, so the beacon will only be good for awhile. Emissions can be altered by either powering down systems or masking them with special hardware. Powering down and back up takes time, but is less risky. Masking is much more risky. Gravitic is the hardest to beat, but can be done by hiding in the shadow of a bigger ship / body. Players can also use expensive hardware to warp surrounding space, but these have a high energy output. ------- Enemies / Detectors Enemies are ships, stations and satellites. Ships move, stations and satellites are fixed. All ships and bases can automatically detect the wrong visual type, but are fooled by holograms. All ships and bases can detect the wrong Signature ID. Enemies with Passive Sensors can detect emissions. Passive Sensors work automatically, and have a given range. Enemies with Deep Scan sensors can detect holograms. Deep Scans can be conducted only within a certain range. Enemies with Gravitic Sensors can detect all mass types in a certain radius. ------- Responses Ships that are seen as completely wrong will be immediately attacked / detained. Ships that are slightly off get three responses, ranging in severity: A Hail, Deep Scan, or Boarding. If Hailed, players must communicate successfully with NPCs on the enemy ship. If Deep Scanned, players must not be running a hologram, and must have either the right ship, or correct sensor shadow equipment in place. If boarded, the player must have no illegal cargo or interior modules (fake beacons, etc.) Afterwards, players will either be allowed to go, detained for a certain time, arrested (game over), or attacked. ------- UI Visual and Signature are displayed as your ship's class and designation, and if you have a hologram and fake beacon, their class and designation (in parenthesis). Emissions are represented by an output bar, with a shaded amount to show how much is being masked. The darker the shading, the less likely you are to be detected. Gravitic is a hard number (mass). The lower it is, the less likely gravitic sensors will pick you up. In parens is the sum of any gravity wells you happen to be near. If they're much heavier than yours, then you're unlikely to be detected. ------- Thoughts? -------------------- Just waiting for the mothership... Edited by - Wavinator on 12/7/00 4:23:33 PM

Hrm, sounds interesting... although with the detectors they wouldn''t be too reliable IMO becuase of
a) The background radiations (star?)
b) The background gravity (have you ever seen one of those funky renderings of hawking theory of gravity - how the sun and planets are bending the gravity plane when travelling?) - therefore a small ship is hidden (effectively)
c) The enemy ship could have disabled their iff beacon - thus no iff...
d) The ship is painted black with light absorbing material.

using these technologies and certain conditions - i.e. a large incoming transport and high solar activity would make the perfect sneaking opportunity...

Oh well just my ideas...

Oh and don''t forget the lazy sleeping guards that are snoozing away at their stations

Dæmin
(Dominik Grabiec)
sdgrab@eisa.net.au

It all sounds ok to me.. however some points (coming from the top of my head when I should be working)

1) You missed out Movement detection... although that may be a part of the other detection methods.

2) if your IFF isnt being broadcast.. thats imediatly suspicious.

3) You could always bribe the station commander, or scanner guy, or something.

4) You could get a lift on a neutral freighter (one that hopefully isnt stopped and searched)

5) Whether a player is detained, arrested or whatever, depends also on how much contact he''s had with the race that discovers him and what thier oppionion of the player is (and if any allied star empires have a warrent out for the players arrest)

6) The player could hire some mercineries to "deal" with any boarding party...

7) You could try and sneak through/near a nebula or pulsar or something in an effort to hide some emissions. Or just to loose a persuing ship...

quote: Original post by Dæmin

Hrm, sounds interesting... although with the detectors they wouldn''t be too reliable IMO becuase of
a) The background radiations (star?)
b) The background gravity (have you ever seen one of those funky renderings of hawking theory of gravity - how the sun and planets are bending the gravity plane when travelling?) - therefore a small ship is hidden (effectively)

c) The enemy ship could have disabled their iff beacon - thus no iff...
d) The ship is painted black with light absorbing material.

using these technologies and certain conditions - i.e. a large incoming transport and high solar activity would make the perfect sneaking opportunity...

Thanks Dæmin! Yeah, I''m actually hoping the player will use these properties in their strategy! So hiding near a gravity well that emits lots of radiation (a star) would be ideal. Or powering down in an asteroid field would also work.

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Oh well just my ideas...

Much appreciated!

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Oh and don''t forget the lazy sleeping guards that are snoozing away at their stations

Hey, this actually gives me a cool idea. There should be some concept of an "alertness" or security level. So if it''s a sleepy backwater port, maybe they''re not as alert as a high security system that''s been experiencing a lot of stealth activity. Cool!

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by NightWraith

1) You missed out Movement detection... although that may be a part of the other detection methods.

Thx NightWraith!

Though the science for all of this is somewhat fudged, I''m assuming that things like motion detection and radar are obsolete because of the amount of territory (a system) being covered). But these could be used locally, though. Hmmm.... How would you beat motion detection???

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2) if your IFF isnt being broadcast.. thats imediatly suspicious.

Yes, good point. It''s cause to immediately stop and search you.

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3) You could always bribe the station commander, or scanner guy, or something.

Absolutely!

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4) You could get a lift on a neutral freighter (one that hopefully isnt stopped and searched)

Yeah, this one I really like!!!

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5) Whether a player is detained, arrested or whatever, depends also on how much contact he''s had with the race that discovers him and what thier oppionion of the player is (and if any allied star empires have a warrent out for the players arrest)

OK, that''s a better way of doing it. That way it''s not so arbitrary, and gives you a chance to try again. I want to use reputation, so if you''re detained then maybe your rep goes down, and if it keeps happening, then you''re thrown in jail (3 strikes, or whatever).

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6) The player could hire some mercineries to "deal" with any boarding party...

Hahaha! Sweet, hadn''t thought about that, but it''s going in!!!

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7) You could try and sneak through/near a nebula or pulsar or something in an effort to hide some emissions. Or just to loose a persuing ship...

Right. The tough thing about space is that the terrain is pretty dull. No caves, or forests, or buildings to hide in. So, yeah, these are great suggestions. Thx!



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Just waiting for the mothership...

About illegal cargo, it would be neat if you can have hidden cargo, this would be usefull for smugglers. This would pass a standard inspection, but would not stand a full search of the ship.
For dissimulating yourself, could you stick your ship to a capital ship a la Star Wars. If your ship is little enough, it would be cloaked from all the capital ship sensors, and this could allow you to scan the capital ship data or even to infiltrate it.
About boarding, I wonder how you plan it, because it could allow some very interesting things...

quote: Original post by Niphty

a few thoughts here.. one first one, why not attach yourself to an asteroid, and simply use some jets to thrust it, and you, towards your goal. stray asteroids are surely not too uncommon in asteroid areas. Just hope they don''t think it a threat and blast it with you on it... hehe

Yeah, I was thinking abou this one. Maybe you could even use your own manuevering jets to steer it. Realistically, though, most systems worth protection would have an emphemeris detailing the orbital positions of almost EVERYTHING in the system worth tracking. (US Space Command tracks tons of crap in orbit right now, down to stray nuts and bolts I think).

But I''d never be one to let realism get in the way of gameplay, so this goes in!

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Radar will NEVER be out of use. Why? it''s better at tracking simple objects. Now, if a really awesome thing comes along that makes radar obsolete, then it''ll hafta do what radar does, plus something else.

My main excuse is that all sensors are FTL. Radar emissions are hours old by the time they come back from the edge of a system. (Light takes about 4 hours, and radio''s a bit slower).

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perhaps it tracks bodies by gravimetric signatures or some such....

Yup! That''s one core sensor type, with all the stuff you talked about, already going in!

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Or you have a special device, which UNWARPS gravity around you.. but puts out a lot of radiation, as you said. Now, what if you want to make a big impression? who says you can''t turn that gravity generator the other way and make yourself look HUGE.
Now say you''ve stolen the IFF ID of a battlecruiser.. and you''ve got a hologram to look the part.. you warp up some space around you so those gravity detectors go wild.. and then that''ll give you the radiation signature of a capital ship as well.. and you sail into port, with the other people running far, far away hehehe.

LOL!!! Okay, yes, this has to go in. This gives me some insight on the AI, too. It should respond to you based only on what it can "see." (no peeking, as I was planning...)

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Of course, countermeasures are nessicary. Perhaps there''s a way to see through a hologram.. but you have to be close to the object to see through it. Thus, you have to risk getting close. whee And of course, the other scan methods you mention all seem to be fine and dandy the way they are at least.. for now.

Thx! This was right on target. Using different holograms are like wearing different disguises! I now see that not only can you sneak in, but maybe you could even impersonate another ship!!! (Better not dock or get boarded, tho!)

Cool!




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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote: Original post by DungeonMaster

About illegal cargo, it would be neat if you can have hidden cargo, this would be usefull for smugglers. This would pass a standard inspection, but would not stand a full search of the ship.

Yes! Forgot about these. They''ll be added as ship "upgrades" that you can get at the shadier ports. Thx!

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For dissimulating yourself, could you stick your ship to a capital ship a la Star Wars. If your ship is little enough, it would be cloaked from all the capital ship sensors, and this could allow you to scan the capital ship data or even to infiltrate it.

Hmmm... I''m thinking about crew special abilities right now, maybe the "Han Solo Manuever" (renamed, of course) could be one of them.

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About boarding, I wonder how you plan it, because it could allow some very interesting things...

Well, I''d much prefer boarding to be carried out like a 3D iso-view RPG / RTS. Sort of like X-Com or Jagged Alliance.

But I''m trying to keep the focus on finishing a prototype that''s stealth, trading, and space combat only. So for right now I''m going to do an abstract combat system of rounds, like a strategy game uses. (X number of marines vs. X number of marines).

If you have suggestions, tho'', I''d love to hear them!




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Just waiting for the mothership...