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What is plot?

Started by March 05, 2006 02:36 AM
18 comments, last by Omega147 18 years, 5 months ago
Quote: Original post by Oluseyi
Here's my meta-question: What profit, exactly, lies in arriving at a rigid definition of "plot"? Writers seem to have done okay for the past couple thousand years without one... Will having a precise definition enable me to churn out mathematically variated regurgitations on a theme and thus make a pile of money by delivering "guaranteed hits" because they "hit on all the appropriate emotional cues in moments of maximum probability and necessity, thus never violating the raders'/viewers' suspension of disbelief"?


Well, since you're ranting I'm going to rant back. [wink]

Actually plotting is widely regarded as one of the most difficult aspects of writing. Nobody cared about it the past couple thousand years because nobody cared about any kind of theory of how to produce art because there was a lot less cultural emphasis on introspection and analysis and, yes, likelihood of commercial success of art. But then in the past hundred years somebody came up with the idea "form follows function". People realized that a house is a machine for living, a story is a machine for conveying memes, and averything should be designed to most effeciently and effectively carry out its purpose. This philosophy has almost been lost again in the sea of bullshit which is postmodernism, but there are still serious scholars in every field who want to truly understand their medium and craft.

So my personal motive for wanting a rigid definition of plot is that I believe I would be a better writer if I understood the form and function of plot better. Relatedly, I believe that clear definitions are essential for clear thinking and writing and wish-washy definitions cripple the person who is trying to use them to think and communicate. Would a programmer have any business using classes and structs if he couldn't even tell you what they were? No, and no one has any business calling themself a prefessional writer if they don't understand the plots, characters, and stories they are creating.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

Quote: Original post by Sneftel
Plot is what game designers do for fun when they aren't designing games. [grin] (hhos)


ouch. you beat me to it. [lol]
This space for rent.
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Quote: Original post by sunandshadow
Actually plotting is widely regarded as one of the most difficult aspects of writing. Nobody cared about it the past couple thousand years because nobody cared about any kind of theory of how to produce art because there was a lot less cultural emphasis on introspection and analysis and, yes, likelihood of commercial success of art. But then in the past hundred years somebody came up with the idea "form follows function". People realized that a house is a machine for living, a story is a machine for conveying memes, and averything should be designed to most effeciently and effectively carry out its purpose. This philosophy has almost been lost again in the sea of bullshit which is postmodernism, but there are still serious scholars in every field who want to truly understand their medium and craft.

So my personal motive for wanting a rigid definition of plot is that I believe I would be a better writer if I understood the form and function of plot better. Relatedly, I believe that clear definitions are essential for clear thinking and writing and wish-washy definitions cripple the person who is trying to use them to think and communicate. Would a programmer have any business using classes and structs if he couldn't even tell you what they were? No, and no one has any business calling themself a prefessional writer if they don't understand the plots, characters, and stories they are creating.

Your analogies puzzle me; by your reasoning, a programmer shouldn't use a construct if he doesn't possess a rigid definition of it. Most people programming on this site couldn't actually define an iterator, but sure can use one. I guess they're in violation.

Programming, at the end of the day, is a craft, not a science. Scientists need very precise definitions, because they are interested in the investigation of truth and relationships between truths. Programmers are interested in the application of principles to solve problems. Their careers inscribe a growing familiarity with an ever-increasing number of design patterns - tested and proven methods for solving various types of problems (the term comes from architecture, so don't think of it as a "programmer thing").

I think writing is the same way. I think that the more that you write, the more you observe situations with the intention to write about them, the more you investigate and burrow deeply in search of connections, the more you find yourself taking advantage of devices that you find to have common properties. In essence, you discover and/or familiarize yourself with "design patterns" for the construction and delivery of plot.

In his early days, Foucault identified with modernism, but as he matured he rejected the label and sought to avoid classification. It's an interesting argument. Rigid definitions of fluid concepts promote stagnation: you begin to think you know all there is to know about the concept, you distill it to a set of precepts and leave the real thinking to obscure academic theorists.

You stated that writing is a craft. No craft is perfected by mere theory. No amount of physics and "woodwork technology" will supplant the experience gained by repeatedly carving different types of objects from different types of wood. No amount of computer science - theory of computation, computability, predicate logic, software architecture and design - replaces actual experience writing, deploying, debugging, maintaining and cursing frantically ([smile])at systems, and learning from all the preceding what is not a good idea for the second iteration.

In similar vein, no amount of introspective theorizing about the nature of plot will replace writing stories and learning, in the process, the keys to plotting. For all his theorizing, Aristotle (and Plato, and Socrates, while we're at it) never wrote a story worth reading. And Homer (or the Bard) never set forth a categorical analysis of his art. Truffaut and Godard may have been critics and theorists, but their films don't exactly reverberate with the public, either.
On the contrary, I believe that a craft is halfway between an art and a science, and once can only truly master a craft by applying BOTH artistic and scientific techniques to studying and practicing that craft. Theory is not a cause of stagnation, it is the source of innovation. I never said I was trying to replace practice with theory, I'm trying to combine them. Experience can hone your technique, but you will still be doing nothing but copying what everyone else has already done because you can't innovate if you don't understand your tools and materials well enough to imagine what else might be done with them and how to do something you've never done before. Experience wothout theory is like hand-eye coordination without brains - a great description of a monkey, not a master craftsman.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

Tell to a REAL chef that he merely copies his brothers and masters, and you'll find yourself searching for your extremities...

Cooking is both a matter of knowing what your products are, are for, and can do in a plate, and a matter of experimenting, because only through experimenting can you find new applications to old recipes, or old copncepts. Penicilline was only discovered through an error in an experiment, but was further enquired... Raku was discovered through an error of manipulation, but was further enquired, refined, studied, and became an art in and of itself... Mostly, you do not innovate because you think you understand EVERYTHINK there is to understand about what you're doing. You innovate because you suddendly do something you had never thought about previously.

Painting is essentially the same. Kandinsky defined his style because of drops he let fall on the ground... Okay. Maybe Picasso defined his style because of his personal tastes. But many copied him. And Van Gogh had a style of his own. NOt many person can pride themselves on having understood Painting because they studied and compared Edvard Munch and Rembrandt.

Mostly, I believe you won't be able to define plot, nor will anyone. Plot is probably a dimension in and of itself, since in a canonical play, there is a supposed "unity of time, space and plot"...
Yours faithfully, Nicolas FOURNIALS
Master chefs have generally gone to culinary school and studied culinary theory. They absolutely have to understand the theory of preparing food which won't give anyone food poisioning. And you can bet creating a new color of Raku glaze is a heck of a lot easier if you understand chemistry.

The ironic thing here is that coming up with a definition of plot is not particularly my goal here, I already have my own definition of plot I'm pretty happy with. What I was hoping Omega might have some insight into is the more detailed level of plotting, the part that's like... social and psychological chemistry equations I guess. You know how there's an idea of moral calculus? I want a calculus of inter-human and intra-human interaction.

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

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As a matter of fact, and to make it short: NO, I didn't know there was a theory of moral calculus, and wouldn't DREAM of having a social interaction calculus...

Is there a theory of perfect pants-and-shirts-color-matching calculus? Just interested...
Yours faithfully, Nicolas FOURNIALS
Quote: Original post by Fournicolas
As a matter of fact, and to make it short: NO, I didn't know there was a theory of moral calculus, and wouldn't DREAM of having a social interaction calculus...

Is there a theory of perfect pants-and-shirts-color-matching calculus? Just interested...


Lol yes actually, there is this thing called color theory, there are several book about it in the art section of any bookstore. And if you go to an art supply store you can buy these handy little color wheels which are like the equivalent of a slide rule for color math. [lol]

I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.

my my... Next thing you'll know, someone will come up with a theory excplaining the sale of books, and people will just write books to get the money predicted from said calculation...

SunandShadow, stop trying to establish this calculus RIGHT NOW!!! I want to keep the book economy the way it is... I find it nice and all...
Yours faithfully, Nicolas FOURNIALS
No, this isn't my post saying that the third part of my idea of plot is ready. I've been... lazy. Hehe. It's spring break, though, whaddya expect? :P

I'll try to get around to it this week. Seriously...

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