RTS, this. Historically, wars are not run entirely through slaughter. Sure it''s a large aspect, but I put this to you: In your average Strategy Game, where are the spies? Where are the alliances and political manuevering? Where are the spin doctors dreaming up propaganda to boost the moral of the troops and civilians? Don''t tell me placing spies wouldn''t be fun gameplay if properly implemented. Or Waiting until the crucial time until you inercept an enemy courier? Or laughing sadistically as your enemy acts on false orders you provided? Part of the reason things are so murderbased is lazy design. but civility can be fun sometimes, it''s just harder to design effectively. So stop being lazy, and listen to hypocritical old Landfish! ====== "The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates "Question everything. Especially Landfish." -Matt

Maybe this is just me making excuses for laziness, but here are some thoughts on why it doesn''t happen:

1) We are lazy

2) Spies: You could make an entire game based on being a spy, actually, now I think about it, you could make an entire game based on being in a tank or as a soldier . But the way I perceive being a spy is a more intimate fashion, where you want to control everything about them. This micromanagement does not go with the soldiers, with soldiers, I want to say "you group, go and kill stuff over that way". Perhaps it is just the way media has portrayed spies and soldiers, but whatever it is, that is the way I (as a game player) see it.

3) Politics: Interface. Politics are really really complex, and a failed campaign is usually a result of the politician not getting their message across clearly (I think ). This is hard enough in real life, yet to do such a thing in a game where your interface is a mouse and a keyboard is quite difficult to do.

4) Laziness.


I suppose this is why my RTS is completely abstract with no mention of real life ... or maybe that was because I can''t draw. I admit, I can''t design a game, I can''t draw. I can program however, so take these right-brained ideas and.... see how stupid they are

Trying is the first step towards failure.

Wasn''t it Tzun Tzu, in "The Art of War", who said that if you actually have to fight, you''ve already lost half the war?

From a resource point of view, if there is a possibility of winning a war without actually fighting it, that''s a hell of a lot more efficient than getting half of your men shortened by a foot and most of your equipment ruined.
Having a non-violent resolution option (intimidation, blackmail, treaty) is definately a possibility in wargames. Heck, did anyone here ever play Diplomacy?

People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
Mad Keith the V.

Spying is a battle of wits. Fascinating stuff. Dan Simmons, probably better known around here as author of Hyperion recently wrote a novel called The Crook Factory. In it, he intertwines fiction with real spy stories of WWII. One of the items he raises is actually pretty tragic. In fact, it would contradict what MadKeithV said above. Basically, an Allied invasion was scheduled to land on a coast in Europe. The Axis powers were aware of this impending invasion through code interception. The Allied forces knew the Axis powers knew, and thus the Allied forces knew they were going to be slaughtered by the Germans. Did the Allied forces call off the invasion? No, they sent their forces to be slaughtered so as not to tip their hand that they had the German codes.

Other interesting things: German U-Boats were sinking Allied ships at a horrific rate. A major effort was made to obtain the German Enigma coding / decoding machine. Spies often used a certain page from a preselected book as the ''key'' to decoding encrypted material. Ian Fleming, creator of James Bond was an MI6 agent. The Germans had two spy networks, the Gestapo and the Abwehr, each intense rivals of the other. During the War, operatives were heavily active in the Americas, including South America and Cuba. J. Edgar Hoover, Dierector of the FBI was notorious for not sharing intelligence with the OSS, predecessor of the CIA. Operatives from one agency often found themselves engaged in espionage against other agencies of the same nation. Double agents played an important role during the War. Great Britain was very successful at recruiting German spies to become double agents and feed false information back to Germany while simultaneously bringing information to Britain.

All really unbelievable stuff.

It''s not an RTS in the most traditional sense, but I can once again refer to the splendid game Thief. The lack of emphasis on direct violence is what made it so much fun. Not only the sneaking but the fact that you can''t afford to get hit much at all. This means that if you play the game well then you don''t get the die/reload/die routine.


A CRPG in development...

Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

"Historically, wars are not run entirely through slaughter."

history wasn't optimized, they couldn't make new people with a few mouse clicks so they had to conserve them. Let's not talk reality since it isn't relevant to this discussion anyway.

"Sure it's a large aspect, but I put this to you: In your average Strategy Game, where are the spies?"

do you play RTSs? Starcraft had parasite, Strifeshadow has this little cloaked eye thing.


"Where are the alliances and political manuevering? Where are the spin doctors dreaming up propaganda to boost the moral of the troops and civilians?"

in an RTS? That's like asking where side scrolling beat 'em up combat is in Sim City. Not ever genre has every type of gameplay

"Don't tell me placing spies wouldn't be fun gameplay if properly implemented."

it might be fun, but then you wouldn't be an RTS, and then you'd be back to complaining why we don't have politics in RTSs

"Part of the reason things are so murderbased is lazy design."

lazy? Good RTSs have the most design put into them of any genre, heck even the bad ones have a lot of work put into them but they just had subpar designers. That doesn't mean they're lazy though. btw saying "murderbased" is silly, but let's not get into discussing that.

[Edited out - No personal attacks in this forum]

Edited by - MadKeithV on May 7, 2001 8:01:58 AM

Ah, WWII ! Well, what about battle of Midway for espionage ? That trick the US used to find out where would the Jappanese attack was so brilliant, so simple, so codable. After they decoded their radio, they still didnt know wether the attack would be against Midway, or another island, because the Jappanese used code names. So, they transmited from the Midway radio a water crisis message. Immediately, they picked up a Japan message saying objective *secret Midway code name* is having a water crisis.


Espionage was implemented in some RTS games, like Tzar, Dark Reign (cool shape-shifting scouts) Two reasons (1 cent each) why its not too usefull.
1) The RTS''s are so fast actioned that you dont really have time to create a network of spies, lest you fall behind with building stuff.
2) There is no really decisive advantage you can obtain by espionage. Though sometimes information is very important in games like Total Annihilation, either way it comes down to massive head on fight, where almost nothing goes on according to a plan.



bishop_pass:
Dieppe also was used as a main excuse to the Russians as to why the Allies cannot open a second front in France in 1943. If they wouldnt attack at Dieppe, but they would have launched a Normandy scale attack on France in 1943, they would have been surely thrown into the sea, with losses incomparable grater than at Dieppe.

Well, most RTS games aren''t based on reality. They are a more ABSTRACT game of tactical positioning. They tend to stick to a core set of coherent tactics, which enables an easy to use interface and "instant" familiarity.

Of course there is probably a lot of potential for a more "humanised" experience to be had which could be an entertaining game. (if War can be humanised ).

quote: Original post by Landfish

In your average Strategy Game, where are the spies?

Adding to anon''s points above (while being a heck of a lot more civil-- jeez!): Red Alert 2 has them. They''re even called spies, and can only be detected by dogs. When they infiltrate your base, they can sabotage power, steal technology, or steal cash.

In Starcraft, the Protoss probes make excellent spies, as does the Terran scan. It''s not exactly what you''re talking about, but it does serve the intelligence gathering function that spies are vital for. Ditto for many of the cloakable combat units.

Of course, there''s definitely room for improvement. The hard thing about spying is representation. In the case of double agents, how do you infiltrate in a game that''s a symbolic representation on a flat plane? Dupe units don''t really work because the player sees it coming ("Oh, here''s one of my chariots coming into my base without my control. Gee, what could it be?")

And there''s the problem of defense. How do you represent that the player''s CnC has been infiltrated?

quote:
Where are the alliances and political manuevering?

Diplomacy definitely could be improved in RTS games. But I think the pace and general 30 minute requirement for multiplayer games makes this tough. I''m also not sure how fun it would be to be backstabbed in a multiplayer game unless (like Diplomacy) the game was upfront about it.

quote:
Where are the spin doctors dreaming up propaganda to boost the moral of the troops and civilians?

This assumes a protracted engagement, not the short term conflict most RTS games are. You get *some* of this in TB empire games like Civilization: CTP and Alpha Centauri. I''m not sure this would work for an RTS.

quote:
Or Waiting until the crucial time until you inercept an enemy courier? Or laughing sadistically as your enemy acts on false orders you provided?

I''ve long wanted to see this kind of stuff. Dummy units, fake signals, etc.

quote:
Part of the reason things are so murderbased is lazy design. but civility can be fun sometimes, it''s just harder to design effectively.

Hey, wanna see my design for a base-building SF RTS that combines politics, stealth, and strategy?

--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

I am surprised that no-one has mentioned the spy in Team Fortress Classic. It worked for them.