) You close the book or turn off the TV and maybe even sigh in satisfaction.
Sometimes, though, you''re left hanging. Things don''t make sense; things don''t turn out the way they should have. Something was missing. It is simply a bad story. (Most anime is, unfortunately, like that for me)
What are some characteristics of a good story? What are some hallmarks of a bad one? Is it even possible to generalize?
(btw, s&s, I''m really starting to warm to some of the concepts you talked about with Nazrix, bishop, and me a few weeks ago wrt what is and is not an emotionally satisfying narrative experience. So, if you have time, I''d like to take up the discussion here again)
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
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A Good Story Is...
I''m in deep meditation on what it is that a GM has to do in an table-top RPG in order to create a good story. I''m thinking about how AI GMs can get closer to good story telling, and just what the heck a good story is!
What is a good story?
Sometimes you get to the end of the story & everything is just right. Things balanced according to how the genre said they should. The heroine got the guy; all the pieces fit together and where explained; evil was vanguished (or triumphed, if you''re a Goth or into noir ) You close the book or turn off the TV and maybe even sigh in satisfaction.
Sometimes, though, you''re left hanging. Things don''t make sense; things don''t turn out the way they should have. Something was missing. It is simply a bad story. (Most anime is, unfortunately, like that for me)
What are some characteristics of a good story? What are some hallmarks of a bad one? Is it even possible to generalize?
(btw, s&s, I''m really starting to warm to some of the concepts you talked about with Nazrix, bishop, and me a few weeks ago wrt what is and is not an emotionally satisfying narrative experience. So, if you have time, I''d like to take up the discussion here again)
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
) You close the book or turn off the TV and maybe even sigh in satisfaction.
Sometimes, though, you''re left hanging. Things don''t make sense; things don''t turn out the way they should have. Something was missing. It is simply a bad story. (Most anime is, unfortunately, like that for me)
What are some characteristics of a good story? What are some hallmarks of a bad one? Is it even possible to generalize?
(btw, s&s, I''m really starting to warm to some of the concepts you talked about with Nazrix, bishop, and me a few weeks ago wrt what is and is not an emotionally satisfying narrative experience. So, if you have time, I''d like to take up the discussion here again)
--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...
Sure, discuss away. 
I''m not sure I can answer your question though. I''ve been wrestling with a variant of that question for more than a year now: what would be the best possible work of fiction for me personally? I figure if it would be the ideal thing for me to read, it would be the ideal thing for me to write. Some of the things I''ve come up with are: it must have a romance, it must talk about identity and ethics, it must wax poetic and mythical (in the style of Samuel R. Delany), and it must describe visually beautiful things.
That, I know, is not terribly relevant to your question, because it''s about content and is tailored to me. I suppose the best answer I could give you is that a good story must be emotionally involving, and it''s ending must exemplify one of a few accepted forms of poetic justice. I would say that one hallmark of a good story is that it has the type of ending the reader expected/hoped for at the beginning - that it maintained the contract with the reader in good faith.
I would say a hallmark of a bad story is one which has no clear application of justice to the characters.
I''m not sure I can answer your question though. I''ve been wrestling with a variant of that question for more than a year now: what would be the best possible work of fiction for me personally? I figure if it would be the ideal thing for me to read, it would be the ideal thing for me to write. Some of the things I''ve come up with are: it must have a romance, it must talk about identity and ethics, it must wax poetic and mythical (in the style of Samuel R. Delany), and it must describe visually beautiful things.
That, I know, is not terribly relevant to your question, because it''s about content and is tailored to me. I suppose the best answer I could give you is that a good story must be emotionally involving, and it''s ending must exemplify one of a few accepted forms of poetic justice. I would say that one hallmark of a good story is that it has the type of ending the reader expected/hoped for at the beginning - that it maintained the contract with the reader in good faith.
I would say a hallmark of a bad story is one which has no clear application of justice to the characters.
Good story ... Tough question. Obviously, there cant be such thing as a good story recipe, like there''s no good game recipe.
Two rules for a good story (1 cent each)
1) The story needs an element of surprise in the end, and has to be quite unpredictable throughout. If a happy end would ruin the surprise, I''d rather have no happy end at all.
2) Must not explain everything; must make me think; must open new possibilities; must leave me wondering in the end; after a good story, I have to keep asking "what if" and "how come" questions.
Two examples of great stories, that should prove my point : Rashomon (Akira Kurosawa movie), and Se7en.
*WARNING* if you didnt see these movies, please dont read, this are MOVIE SPOILERS, and I''d be really sorry to spoil such great movies.
In Rashomon, you are left wondering how much lieing and evil is there in the world, how unlikely is one to find out the truth, or justice. But, the greatest surprise, none of these are that important in the end, and as the heavy rain that keeps falling throughout the movie leaves place to the sun, the one good deed of the peasant completely and instantly changes the grim pesimistic mood of the movie to healthy hope.
In Se7en, I wont even mention that horrible surprise in the end. So much more dramatic as it was expected. We knew for sure something bad just had to happen, but we had no clue. And the surprise lasts for a long time, as we begin to understand the magnitude of John Doe''s plan, and then what could motivate such a mad enterprise. As for wondering, most of the movie isnt going on on screen, but in the viewers mind. The few (though awfull) grotesque scenes are relatively mild compared to other movies. Yet...
Hey, of all the stories, I just had to pick two Christian based stories. Wonder wether this is an accident..
Two rules for a good story (1 cent each)
1) The story needs an element of surprise in the end, and has to be quite unpredictable throughout. If a happy end would ruin the surprise, I''d rather have no happy end at all.
2) Must not explain everything; must make me think; must open new possibilities; must leave me wondering in the end; after a good story, I have to keep asking "what if" and "how come" questions.
Two examples of great stories, that should prove my point : Rashomon (Akira Kurosawa movie), and Se7en.
*WARNING* if you didnt see these movies, please dont read, this are MOVIE SPOILERS, and I''d be really sorry to spoil such great movies.
In Rashomon, you are left wondering how much lieing and evil is there in the world, how unlikely is one to find out the truth, or justice. But, the greatest surprise, none of these are that important in the end, and as the heavy rain that keeps falling throughout the movie leaves place to the sun, the one good deed of the peasant completely and instantly changes the grim pesimistic mood of the movie to healthy hope.
In Se7en, I wont even mention that horrible surprise in the end. So much more dramatic as it was expected. We knew for sure something bad just had to happen, but we had no clue. And the surprise lasts for a long time, as we begin to understand the magnitude of John Doe''s plan, and then what could motivate such a mad enterprise. As for wondering, most of the movie isnt going on on screen, but in the viewers mind. The few (though awfull) grotesque scenes are relatively mild compared to other movies. Yet...
Hey, of all the stories, I just had to pick two Christian based stories. Wonder wether this is an accident..
Coincidentally, I just ran across one screenwriter''s impressions of what makes a good movie (story). It probably needs some teaking to apply to games.
David Siegel''s Nine Act Structure
Certainly different from the traditional literary profile.
David Siegel''s Nine Act Structure
Certainly different from the traditional literary profile.
What a good story is, is going to be different for every person that experiences it. Some will think it''s good, others not. But, probably the best way to go about achieving what you want is to consider your target audience. You don''t have to give them everything they expect, but you should consider how they think and try to create a story so that it makes sense to the reader. Although it doesn''t need to consistantly make sense throughout, but in the end everything should come together.
The story shouldn''t be so predictable that there''s no need to read it. It should also be at the comprehension level of the target audience.
It also depends on what you''re trying to do. Are you trying to entertain someone for a little while, or are you trying to write the next piece of litterature which is so profound that it will be remembered for all time? Are you trying to show off your skills as a writer, or do you simply have a story to tell? If it''s clear at the beginning which you''re trying to do then how good your story is will be determined by how close you hit the mark.
Personally I like storys that in the short term grab you by the soul, thrashes it around a bit and stuffs it back in. In the long term, if I can still remember it, then it was probably good. I think it just plain comes down to trying to please your audience. Green Eggs and Ham was a great book when I was young. I suppose it even has a moral of sorts now that I think of it 20 years later. I''m told that one of the keys to being a successful entertainer is to always leave your audience wanting more. I guess it puts you in a good position to knock off a quick sequel.
Maybe there needs to be a clarification here. What do you meen by a "good story"? Something that is entertaining, or something to be remembered for all time?
The story shouldn''t be so predictable that there''s no need to read it. It should also be at the comprehension level of the target audience.
It also depends on what you''re trying to do. Are you trying to entertain someone for a little while, or are you trying to write the next piece of litterature which is so profound that it will be remembered for all time? Are you trying to show off your skills as a writer, or do you simply have a story to tell? If it''s clear at the beginning which you''re trying to do then how good your story is will be determined by how close you hit the mark.
Personally I like storys that in the short term grab you by the soul, thrashes it around a bit and stuffs it back in. In the long term, if I can still remember it, then it was probably good. I think it just plain comes down to trying to please your audience. Green Eggs and Ham was a great book when I was young. I suppose it even has a moral of sorts now that I think of it 20 years later. I''m told that one of the keys to being a successful entertainer is to always leave your audience wanting more. I guess it puts you in a good position to knock off a quick sequel.
Maybe there needs to be a clarification here. What do you meen by a "good story"? Something that is entertaining, or something to be remembered for all time?
Hmm a good story, a bad story is easier to define but sometimes only in hindsight.
Most good stories seem to hit an emotional chord. I forget now what they are now but a
good story has to have at least one or more of these elements and apparently there
is only a few of them to pick from. Love,revenge,unrequited love,betrayal are a few
I can remember. But this is not a formula but rather elements that appear in good stories.
Hidden Dragon,Crouching Tiger did a lot for me. Then again there have been many stories
that I have read/seen that have equally meant a lot to me.
I suppose a bad story is one that leaves you feeling empty. Sure you can feel sad at
the end of story but feeling empty is something different. You don''t care what happens
to the characters.
Good stories take you out of yourself and you get lost in the world. You actually do
care what happens to the characters.
But how do you make the reader/player/viewer care? Bloody difficult.
Has anybody here actually cared about the character in a game? I don''t mean whether
you get fragged or not but have actually felt that?
The only games I can think of is those Tamagochi or virtual pet things but is this
the same?
Most good stories seem to hit an emotional chord. I forget now what they are now but a
good story has to have at least one or more of these elements and apparently there
is only a few of them to pick from. Love,revenge,unrequited love,betrayal are a few
I can remember. But this is not a formula but rather elements that appear in good stories.
Hidden Dragon,Crouching Tiger did a lot for me. Then again there have been many stories
that I have read/seen that have equally meant a lot to me.
I suppose a bad story is one that leaves you feeling empty. Sure you can feel sad at
the end of story but feeling empty is something different. You don''t care what happens
to the characters.
Good stories take you out of yourself and you get lost in the world. You actually do
care what happens to the characters.
But how do you make the reader/player/viewer care? Bloody difficult.
Has anybody here actually cared about the character in a game? I don''t mean whether
you get fragged or not but have actually felt that?
The only games I can think of is those Tamagochi or virtual pet things but is this
the same?
This topic is closed to new replies.
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