quote: Original post by AngelStar
Forgive me if I cannot accept such Lazy answers. Dont say you cannot do it, just saying you dont want to is enough.

I´m not sure whether this was directed at me, but I thought I had made it clear that "I don´t want to", for the various reasons I have already mentioned.

Making games, in opposition to writing books is not about "doing the right thing", or "putting the right message across". If you make games, you have to make games that sell (unless you´re a hobbyist), and in order to do that, you have to look at the market and your customers.

I have no problem with lead characters of whatever ethnicity you want, but I also think that the deceision to have a non-standard lead character will always be seen as a conscious one, which then puts you in the spot to make that aspect relevant to the story.
If you have a story that requires the main character to be black/green/whatever, then it´s a different pair of shoes. Native American stories, ganglife, you name it. The only problem then is that your story will have to be perfect, in order to avoid the "ho, a stereotype!" kind of criticism.
But that kind of choice will occur BECAUSE of the story, and not vice versa. I am totally against having black/green/whatever lead characters in a game just because someone felt it was necessary to finally have one, or because some minority felt excluded.

yes, yes, Oluseyi.....you have finally discovered the secret. This is yet another means for the white man to hold down the minorities......damn I though you would never find out.

I swear, if minorities get their way it is called equality. If the minority dont get their way it is called racism. Just because you dont get what you want doesnt mean it is being kept from you because of racism. If you want a game with a minority as the lead character, then by all means you make the damn game. You cant expect people to make a game based on what YOU want, unless of course you are the boss


"I pity the fool, thug, or soul who tries to take over the world, then goes home crying to his momma."
- Mr. T

quote: Original post by granat
Thats funny I thought that we were all human.

I never said we weren't. I said "culture." Culture varies by location and ethnicity. Cultures are not all the same.

quote: But I sense that you feel that there are fundamental differences between black/white/asian people ??

Not biologically or anything like that, but sociologically - which is an extension of the cultural identity. A child is socialized according to the norms of his/her culture, not ethnicity. That means that different negro cultures will have different responses to the exact same stimulus due to the differences in socialization.

quote: Remember the question was not about different cultures but only different skin colors/races.

So it was the wrong question. I answer the right - and I assume implied - one.

quote: And why would that make a difference big enough for a "white" designer to go that way ?

It wouldn't. Which is why I said "if you want something done, do it yourself." Don't blame white/asian designers for writing white/asian stories with white/asian leads. Do your own thing.

quote: I don't like the original question because it implies that people who do games with white characters are racists !!

Possibly, and I really think that's silly. There is nothing racist about identifying with your own culture and your own audience. You even agree with my pursuant statement:

quote:
Original post by Oluseyi: You relate to what you are and who/what you know.
Reply by granat: I agree and there is nothing wrong with that.

quote: Original post by ncsu121978
yes, yes, Oluseyi.....you have finally discovered the secret. This is yet another means for the white man to hold down the minorities......damn I though you would never find out.

Your sarcasm seems to be a reflection of your own insecurities. If you read and pondered on my post (the pondering being the critical part), you would realize that I think people writing/casting strictly their own groups is perfectly normal.

quote: I swear, if minorities get their way it is called equality. If the minority dont get their way it is called racism. Just because you dont get what you want doesnt mean it is being kept from you because of racism.

That's a larger and more complex issue than you think. Within the confines of gaming, probably. In society as a whole, however, there's more to it. That, however, is not the thrust of this debate. IMO "minorites", as you call them, need to control their own images rather than ask other entities to accurately reflect them. That is impossible.

quote: If you want a game with a minority as the lead character, then by all means you make the damn game.

- Me, nicely paraphrased by you.

Edited by - Oluseyi on October 3, 2001 10:37:02 AM

Edited by - Oluseyi on October 3, 2001 10:38:30 AM

Deus Ex handled the issue pretty well , you could choose an black ''Skin'' and all the in game cut scenes etc would reflect as a black male, (Even Paul was Black). Its sad , the only game to have a main black character was Shadow Man .

quote: IMO "minorites", as you call them, need to control their own images rather than ask other entities to accurately reflect them.

These ''entities'' are predominantly owned by white males expressing what they understand about the Black community , what is wrong with the black community asking for a more accurate representation ?

Let me break it down , the game is deeeper than just working off a beeper.

quote: If you want a game with a minority as the lead character, then by all means you make the damn game.

I am doing something about it . Just signed up for v12 , I mean Torque engine, I have the skillz........................

to cut a short story short , you will be hearing about a small African American Dev Team , Run Away Slave Productions.

The entities have no reason to give it to them.

Seriously. Rather than fighting with white establishments for not accurately representing us, why don''t we fight for the establishment of our own entities, with a fair market chance and then support them with our dollars? We probably wont though, because this is about entertainment, not civil rights, and we''ve been rather ineffeective as a people in that regard.

It''s funny - and I don''t mean to be airing this "in public" - but the educated black community is very often condemnatory of black endeavors: hip-hop is labeled "derogeratory", black movies are "insufficiently cerebral", and so on. Support them, then you''ll create the wealth necessary to be more "cerebral" and "positive"!

Make no mistake, this all boils down to money.

quote: Original post by Tha_HoodRat
Run Away Slave Productions.

What the hell kinda name is "Run Away Slave"? Your ancestors were free people, and slavery was an atrocious abberation perpetrated against them. Don''t define yourself in terms of something that shouldn''t have been. Defiance is good; mental subservience is _very_ bad.

But... do your thang, baby!

Make the game you want to make and forget about these people who so much time on their hands their actually conserned about the race of the lead character.

I have pondered why most games include people that are white, but I think it has to do with what most of the developers relate with.. I do not have any numbers to back this up, but isn''t the majority of game developers white in skin color? It is just natural to assume that they would include white characters in their games..

THIS IS NOT A RACE ISSUE!!!

I admit to wondering why most main characters are white, but it does not really affect me any. I enjoy the game anyway =)

Race is a skin color ... people''s ethnic background is what''s most important... me being a product of serveral generations of multi-cultured couples should know better than any =)


Develop your game... make it whatever you want... YOU have the power to create!!!!

quote: What the hell kinda name is "Run Away Slave"? Your ancestors were free people, and slavery was an atrocious abberation perpetrated against them. Don''t define yourself in terms of something that shouldn''t have been. Defiance is good; mental subservience is _very

You are missing the point , in the black community , a Run Away slave is a hero who not only survives the odds , but lives in spite of the odds . [Insert American History , triangular slave trade here , oops , American Education System Conviniently skips that] .

I aint mad though.Think of it like this , a typical 6 year old surburban raised white/black/asian/[insert any ethnic group here] , wants to be superman/batman/[insert favourate comic book hero] . A typical african raised black kid wants to be Shaka/ Kaguvi/ Tamboaga/ [insert african heroes you grandma told you about here].

People are always complaining how games are becoming stale coz they are all clones and shit , but nobody takes time to tap into other resources . Take my word for this , I have some stories that will make killer games (this aint no newbie rant either , I been making games since 1984).