Hey everybody, I've posted in the game design forum and rather erroneously alluded to the plot of my game there. The plot I have brewing is littered with Ancient Greek Philosophy and Mysticism as fundamental building blocks of the plot, and I am working conscientiously in creating a plot that can contain and communicate these ideas effectively. The most important thinkers are Heraclitus and Aristotle as of now. The most important things within the game itself is pacing- but I was wondering if anybody could supply a modicum of feedback.

Primary inspirations include: The Name of the Rose (the film based on the book by Umberto Eco), Brave New World (by Aldous Huxley), Ancient Greek Philosophy, Pessimistic thinkers.

I'll give an example of an antagonist and a small introduction to how the game might begin...

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The world you're more or less plunged into is in an unsteady state. Much like in FFIX, there is a country that is maximizing their military power (Alexandria) under a new senatorial body- they are only combated by a party of more conservative members who believe this extension will cause a collapse in the future.

They have an analog to look to. The Church body at this point is at the dangerous point of utter collapse, having had to relinquish much of its extramundane authority to new fragmentary faiths and governments. This Church, associated with the country that is expanding militarily, is struggling to maintain its power and is being outmoded and pretty much replaced by the State-as-faith. This government is not totalitarian, they just have an unparalleled army structure and material resources. The conservative party is the only one admonishing the new senators.

This is exacerbated by the presence of a renegade cleric who claims the current church is heretical, waging provincial skirmishes in the hopes of having others defect to his side. He possesses an unreal power that he calls "The Flame of God's Great Angel" that is capable of bringing throngs of challengers to the dust of the earth- his zeal is unmatched. Granted that he has this power, the central government pays lip service to the faith of the realm by hiring out mercenary groups to aid the local militia under fire of the cleric. The Church understands that it is borderline powerless in this scenario and lets the State call the shots.

Now for the antagonist I'd like to discuss.

This renegade cleric received his power from an associate of the 'angel' that he refers to as the source of his power. This man is a wizened, furtive, and inscrutable monk who speaks quietly and carefully: for now my name for him is Bacchio. He is actually a man that precedes the common age by 1,500 years- and he is the unofficial co-founder of the faith that is now in jeopardy. Those many years ago, he participated in a few wars of religious legitimacy with his partner, the 'official' first 'pope' of the realm now regarded as a saint. They had a clash of ideals following the war. Bacchio refused to make his religious thought palatable to anybody but the 'mystics', and in the wake of the war he was seen as a liability to lasting holy peace. Resultantly, this first pope put him to death. Bacchio's fragments remain a cornerstone of the religious texts though- for he managed to write them anonymously at the time. They all discuss a 'Flame of God' that exists beyond the beyond- and only the properly faithful can adequately embrace it.

Thus by the time the game begins, many in the Church see these fragments a prophetic- not realizing that the author himself is alive and manipulating the campaigns that are taking place. The angel he works for is really calling the shots- but to what end?

I intend on having the game's plot begin with the protagonist, a member of a hired out mercenary force, losing his entire squad in battle to this 'angel' who conspicuously leaves the main character and his squad leader- a woman, alive. The others he brutally murders and I intend on having this form the 'groundwork' of the plot. You will seek to understand the religious war at work, and coming to grips with this opens up the plot to the mysteries at work throughout the rest of the world.

Any thoughts ?

Thanks. There's a lot more of it too. I want to avoid unnecessary melodrama in the plot and this is pretty much just a slice of a very big project.

The game will ultimately be about the attempt to avoid a Brave New World scenario where pleasure kills any humanity we may have. To this end the main antagonists intend on creating an eternal war to help humanity 'evolve' past war- not suppress it with toys and pleasure. Though I also want to keep the player in suspense as to what their motivations are and who and who isn't a normal 'villain' and not just a member of that organization. I intend on making history a large part of the plot, so a historian (see Assassin's Creed for the bespectacled man. I believe he's in that Brotherhood title from my limited recollection) will aid the party in discerning who and who isn't a person from history returned.

The crux is that your party will assume they (the villains) want to destroy the world when in reality they want to bring it out of its 'animality' and help it to a sort of superhuman reality- no matter how long it takes. They want to 'end' history. Circles and cycles are very important to the game's theme. Both the protagonist and the antagonist will develop their concept of what the 'cycle' of the universe really entails. I somehow want to make 'learning' itself a theme.

Of course, this all seems very generic. This is why I'm creating characters who oftentimes want nothing to do with any ideology- people who just want to live their lives. A few will care of course, but people are people- and I want to capture this in the game as an end goal.

The main thinkers used in this game as stated are Heraclitus, Aristotle, maybe Jung, Aldous Huxley's Brave New World dystopia, a bit of Hegel, some Schopenhauer perhaps... Xenogears (heck even Phantasy Star IV) precedes my emphasis on these things, but having read Jung and Freud I felt Xgears' interpretations were a bit hamfisted.

Xenogears wasn't hamfisted. Rather it was meant to give vague concepts of philosophers and psychology so that the average player can identify with it better.

I won't agree with you- but I won't say it was terrible either. I do not think they employed the concepts in the ideal way. The best use of other theorists that they got was through Id, and Freud by extension.

In my inventory, the game gets an 8/10 because it in and of itself was compelling. I am definitely crediting it with inspiration in this game too, but it's just an opinion i had after completing it.

Another example of character at work:

You recruit a "young" girl from one of the more aristocratic or old families. Their name is old enough on its own to merit respect, and they are well connected even in this unstable world. Your journey brings you to their doorstep when you realize that the family uses combat/defensive androids as protectors. You investigate because the angel referred to later is of remarkably similar construction.

The girl that joins you is anxious to leave home so that she can experience whatever it is that's out there for herself. She will actually be pretty tough but will experience a lot of loss as a character. With her comes the android- requested to help her outside of the protection of her own home. With him in tow, the plot will develop around a Sephiroth-esque 'chasing' of this character. But as more characters join you, the story becomes more nefarious and complex. Who is just some random operator, and who is working for the 'angel' character? What are his motivations? Are they for humans to know at all?

The big twist is when this android that accompanied the girl first meets the angel, there is definitely a recognition- they know each other. The android will also remember his name- for now I have it set as Paulk. But before he can remember anything else, this android is essentially murdered and killed off by Paulk, and Paulk's previous hesitation in killing the two members of that mercenary club is now lifted. You have to kill him- but JUST when you realized that something much more uncanny is lurking under the surface.

All the while, other events proceed. Since one of the main themes of the game is 'history' I want to communicate a feeling of the inexorable to the player. Later into the game, you start wondering whether or not the whole thing has been scripted or not. Your motivation to fight is not motivated in anything deeper- you are more confused than anybody else. So your drive to 'find what's going on' is what ends up motivating you- altruism doesn't really have a place. Because there is no 'victim party' and 'aggressor' party- the world seems to be built on infinite questions rather than security and answers.

And whereas most JRPG plots have us saying 'we'll jump into the future anyway' I want to say- but what would we be sacrificing by making that jump? The main 'antagonist' has such an idea of how the world works.

Im curious, what sort of graphical style do you want? I have a few in mind that I think would work well

2d: FF VI

2d with real time 3d backrounds: Xenogears (I think using sub pixel animation to get the fluid animation of xenogears would be pretty cool)

2d with pre rendered 3d backrounds: Star Ocean 2 (using fixed camera angles gives it a more cinematic approach without taking control away from the player)

3d: FF XII (maybe open space (not open world) like ff xii?)

Good question. I've been developing concepts for a battle system in light of potential graphical styles. I want there to be an element of non-turn based in there. If it was 3d, the plan was that would you would be able to have a base set of skills that could be manipulated in context of combat. So, if you used a spell that could immobilize enemies by lifting them off the ground, you could invert the same spell and force them too the ground for different bonuses. Also, if you had 2 mages cast the same spell at once but in opposite directions, you could do more damage and leave the enemy severely disadvantaged. Of course, the trade-off is that you would lose access to two mages as they cast this! This was my basic idea from the outset- and it seemed to mandate a fluid form of combat more conformable to the interface of 3d. That being said, I'm thinking over the other options and how I could provide the player with the 'free-form' style of combat I'd enjoy myself.

Of all of the items you present it would most resemble XII. But- I'm debating whether or not you'd enter into a 'combat area' through encounters on a removed world map. My idea for encounters is that you'd be thrown into a little combat zone with some randomized environment that you could manipulate (a very talented acrobatic type could use walls as a springboard to launch an attack on the enemy's flank. More obstacles would mean more space for an attack of this nature.) But it might detract from the flow of the game to have an over large combat space appear every time you enter a fight. So I'm trying to balance this idea.

I also had the idea of creating places to grind by giving the game a 'contract' system where you could train in any area you've been previously with level scaled enemies. Doing this would net less experience the longer you did it without break, but the more you go, the greater 'item acquisition' would be (XII's chain system). But this would be so that you could have many places to just duke it out and test new ability combos and personel mixes. I also had the idea of doing what Suikoden II does and getting a 'castle' but you can choose what region of the world you want it- with different bonuses depending on where you choose to put it.

Of course- 3d requires MUCH more work, and granted how inexperienced I am, it might not be feasible. But this is the "game plan" as of now- and I'm pretty confident that I can make something workable out of the plot ideas I have with some more cutting and refining.

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So to answer your question in a more straightforward way

2d/ FFVI: Most *practical*. Would seem to be likely, but would require extensive reworking of the original system.

2d/Xenogears: More akin to my original idea than the VI idea.

2d/Star Ocean: The combat system actually resembles my idea somewhat. Only, there would be more environment interactivity for me.

3d/FFXII: Most similar to the interface I have in mind- you walk around little environments and sniff things out.

Common to all of these schemes is my desire to prioritize interactivity and the 'fun-ness of exploration'. I hope this clarifies some stuff.

OKAY so here is a more finalized and rather presentable snippet from the 'direction' of the plot. I've said related things in the 3rd post, but perhaps this is a bit clearer.

This brief exposition will not be in too much detail, but consider it the 'universe' that the character is entering into. If people steal this, so be it- I don't think it's good enough yet to merit stealing anyway, and the idea is so closely related to my studies in philosophy that any 'theft' would fail to adequately mirror what I had in mind.

Backstory, many years back.

A long time ago, there existed the society depicted in Brave New World. People were born in test tubes- all with pale flesh and red eyes as a result of this process. Two brothers- abominations by the standards of society, 'rebelled'. One of them was born very humane- he did not have the deprivation of feeling all the others around him, who were obsessed with pleasure and the like, were. This is pretty much Brave New World- ripped straight from it. The dystopia works well into the scenario of my plot.

Fortunately for a mere two brothers, they found that forces of nature were susceptible to control, and they wielded 'magic' effectively to the end of usurping the Hub, the morass of the society thus alive. As said, of these two brothers, only one could rightfully be styled "humane". He hated a world that threw this away- or at least claimed too. All he saw was hypocrisy- these people had not attained the 'pinnacle' of humanity, but only hid the elements they disliked under an easily controlled process.

So through subtle warfare against the indolent populace, the two brothers cut their way into one of the central power receptacles these societies used to power themselves. Overloading the reactor, they caused a global catastrophe leaving few survivors. These two brothers, (somehow) were protected from this (I'll develop this point). Seeing the state they lived in as inevitable should nothing be done, they decided to control history for the sake of allowing the tattered remnants of humanity to thrive. Since the drive toward 'comfort' was what allowed this to happen, the 'humane' brother decided to inflict an eternal war on humanity once it had re-established itself sufficiently. To do this, he would need to take the power source of civilization and derive something more primary from it- so that he could suffuse a vessel with eternal life. This vessel would be a suitable God and general for this warfare. When humanity had sufficiently developed through strife (or had died, exhausted), their job would be complete.

History occurs

The years following this featured a chaotic spread of events all monitored and subtly influenced by the two brothers, who quickly worked to get a power base for their operations through time. To this end, the 'humane' brother affixed himself to a stationary power source, encasing himself in a coffin like structure that would preserve him. To this he affixed a large clock, telling time with every tick it took. His brother was the 'executor' of his will and wore a portable suit of armor, which made his size rather daunting. They each ripped one of their eyes out of the other to symbolize their eternal bond as one being- each would have an eye the other lacked- so that when the rest of their bodies eroded through time, they ensured their last organic piece was the red eye that remained in its socket.

The masterminding brother realized that he would need a more effective organization to exact his eternal war when the time came. To this end, he abducted 12 personages from the course of time for use in his organizational structure. Putting them into a stasis, he indoctrinated each one of these 'zeitgeists' or spirits of their age for the end of fighting for his side, the side of divinity and the only truth there is. Over the long course of history since this brother's time, we therefore have a member- each one representing a jot on a clock. This group's argument is just that unless conflict is reintroduced as the principal of human life, they will devolve into creatures like those of the Brave New World dystopia. The horror of this reality they seek to outgrow. Each member bore the qualities needed for supreme dedication to the cause and the authority of the doctrine. The doctrine is essentially Heraclitean: that is, strife is justice and warfare preserves.

So as time passed, so do some of these figures. Others prevail in the eyes of time, and are remembered- but the brothers are ever-careful to erase any depictions of these people, so that when all are returned, they will not be immediately recognized.

The game takes place in the days when this plan is finally being actualized. Having accumulated the necessary energy for the task, and having established a destabilization of the world through political and physical plotting, the 12 members are released- now long lived thanks to their stasis- and prepared for the 'end of history' and the beginning of 'evolution'. There is A LOT of philosophy behind this that I cannot bring up here, for it would take too long.

Story, and playing the game

Thus, all of the characters that join you have a relationship to this plot- the symbolism is that EVERYBODY has been somehow produced for this very moment. Remember that A LOT OF time has taken place since the dystopian society, and your characters have a normal perception of time and history. That past seems like a dream to them. In this game I intend on having quite a few characters tie into the social environment of the world they live in, and demonstrate how highly developed and complex cultures ultimately might stem from simple events in the past. History, time, and learning are all very big themes in this game. I intend on giving the villain an argument befitting 100,000+ years of consciousness.

I still need to work on the protagonistic 'argument' for killing this leader off. I have directions for it, but have not yet solidified concepts on this score. I also need to solidify the actual setting and the world itself. I intend on having a very diverse set of biomes and a sort of mythological 'political' fight.