I don''t personally think physical interface is a problem - every artistic medium has physical limitations artists who work in it need to learn to work within or around, no reason computer games should be any different. I think the problem with games being boring - and I agree that they are, I don''t usually see more than two I want to buy in a year - I think the problem is that game creators'' idea of what we can and should put in games is too narrow, as is our stereotypical concept of our audience. If there were computer games about all the different things there are novels about, imagine how cool that would be, how many new games you could find and want to play! Mature games, games with romance as a major theme and plot objective, games with intricate and deep worldbuilding that actually requires players to think... that''s what I want to see!

How much of getting sucked into a game is down to age? I know I dont get drawn into games as much as I did when I was younger. It could be the games themselves being not as immersive but it could also be because I am older and no longer have that childlike imagination

[edited by - WhErE Is My MiNd on February 26, 2004 9:10:24 AM]

@boolean: I totally agree with you. And the "amnesiac guy starts a quest to save the world" thing actually stinks. If this is what designers can come up with nowadays, maybe they should begin to think about retirement...

@ahw: if you think videogames should be entertaining, why keep storytelling out of them? Do you enjoy reading books? If you do, don't you think that a good story can enhance your playing experience? I don't get your point...

@sunandshadow: you're damn right! Anyone with a minimal interest in literature and games should be able to see that the marriage of both would provide us with incredibly deep experiences.

This reminds me of the Metal Gear Solid controversy... I did enjoy both the gameplay AND the story of that game (and this is why I couldn't enjoy Metal Gear 2 the same way, having such a convoluted story). You already have Splinter Cell for your mindless stealth action needs.

Now, tell me, do you watch movies just for the special effects, or do you like to have a well written plot behind the action, moving it forward? Why do you think it should be any different with games? How many of you did enjoy playing "Planescape Torment"? Some mindless action every now and then is ok, but it grows old quite quickly, specially with games getting longer and longer. I say storytelling is another tool for making a game really stand out as solid entertainment; if you just want action, go buy some old style handheld at eBay and you'll have plenty of it!


"Senri no michi mo ippo kara (A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...)"

[edited by - JoriathLionfort on February 26, 2004 10:41:07 AM]

quote: Original post by JoriathLionfort
If you think videogames should be entertaining, why keep storytelling out of them? Do you enjoy reading books? If you do, don''t you think that a good story can enhance your playing experience? I don''t get your point...

Ah, I dont *advocate* keeping storytelling out of games.
I just minimize my expectations, knowing the limitations of the medium, and of the designers nowadays.
I have seen RPGs NOT evolve for the last, what, ten years ? in terms of design, or storyline.
So instead of having delusions that some mogul at the top will suddenly wake up one morning and tell to his employes,
"I know ! Let''s stop making money by making safe recipes games ! We must make BETTER games ! Let''s work on storyline, concept, gameplay and let''s not worry so much about the graphics anymore", I remind myself that, after all, these are just computer games, mostly produced by a Hollywood style multi billion dollar industry, and I should know better than to expect something deep and immersive and profound, yada yada...

Play RTS when I can paint my miniatures and play against my mates on a proper board that I have created myself ?
Play Diablo when I could be playing, I dunno, Heroquest, _Zombies !_, so many other cool boardgames ?
Play Neverwinter Nights multiplayer when I could be exploring the depth of the Underdark with my friends and my favourite DM around a table.

think about it...



Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !

quote: Original post by ahw
"Let''s work on storyline, concept, gameplay and let''s not worry so much about the graphics anymore"

Hey, graphics are important too!

quote: Original post by ahw
Ah, I dont *advocate* keeping storytelling out of games.
I just minimize my expectations, knowing the limitations of the medium, and of the designers nowadays.
I have seen RPGs NOT evolve for the last, what, ten years ? in terms of design, or storyline.
So instead of having delusions that some mogul at the top will suddenly wake up one morning and tell to his employes,
"I know ! Let''s stop making money by making safe recipes games ! We must make BETTER games ! Let''s work on storyline, concept, gameplay and let''s not worry so much about the graphics anymore", I remind myself that, after all, these are just computer games, mostly produced by a Hollywood style multi billion dollar industry, and I should know better than to expect something deep and immersive and profound, yada yada...

Ok, I understand what you''re saying, but thus you agree with the OP. Games are getting more and more tedious, being rehashes of the same old concepts. And creating a better story (or a story at all, for that matter) shouldn''t detract from any other area of the game''s creation. I don''t see why including a better story should result in worse graphics (unless the story is being created by the people at the art department. Hey, writers have to make a living, too! .

quote: Play RTS when I can paint my miniatures and play against my mates on a proper board that I have created myself ?
Play Diablo when I could be playing, I dunno, Heroquest, _Zombies !_, so many other cool boardgames ?
Play Neverwinter Nights multiplayer when I could be exploring the depth of the Underdark with my friends and my favourite DM around a table.

Again, I totally agree with you. But this has nothing to do with the fact that, videogame wise, the "blueprint syndrome" that affects the industry equals poor designs and worse storytelling. Or, more accurately, points out what the OP said: there IS something wrong with the games coming out nowadays.



"Senri no michi mo ippo kara (A journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step...)"

Well, yeah, I *do* agree with the original poster.
I was just trying to say something like "what did you expect, these are computer games".

SnS : oh, come ON ! gimme a bone here I was exagerating for style. You have to agree that most games nowadays are about graphical improvement to previous incarnations of said games.

The most recent example I came across was Red Alert 2.
I had never played Red Alert 2, but I had had a good go at C&C Generals. Well, would you believe me if I told you that I actually thought I was playing Generals... without the 3D.
It''s freaking ridiculous at this point.

Same with NeverWinter Nights. Yes, it''s beautiful, yes it''s gorgeous, and I *do* love the interface. But have you looked at the storyline ? Have you ?? It''s the saddest piece of writing I have had the displeasure to play, pffff, in a VERY long time.
First chapter : fetch the 4 monsters that inhabit the four precinct of the town.
Second chapter : visit the 4 different locations and grab the corresponding hints to unlock the next chapter.
Third chapter : ooh TWO factions are at each others throats... I kinda got bored at this point.
Although there *were* lots of nifty little things, it was still very much under par with a lot of older RPGs I have played.

I *know* we can have graphics, and story, and design, and entertainment. I am just saying, right now, I cant see all those elements together anywhere in sight.

So I just adopt the Stoic attitude : "dont expect miracles. That way when they dont happen you dont get dissapointed and can tell everybody ''told you so''. And when they do happen, well, rejoice and enjoy the luck coz it wont last anyway "

Sancte Isidore ora pro nobis !