in the end, you are right *sigh*
But do we really have to go that far into the money making idea ?
I dont wanna be rich, I just wanna be happy !
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Money competition rts's
quote: Original post by Paul Cunningham
Screw politics people we are here to make games and hopefully some money. If there was no money involved with making games i doubt any of you would be here today. That includes myself! Period.
Paul,
I couldn''t agree more.
Unfortunately, politics plays a part in everything we do. And marketing is (now) a form of politics. Anytime you are trying to influence how people behave, think, and buy, that''s poitics. Or is it that Politics has become Marketing?
There was an ad in last months issue of Game Developer Magazine, it said something like:
Every game developers dream, make cool games and make lots of money!
I think that is what were here for but, we do have to pay attention to the politics involved.
Just my 2 cents worth,
Dak
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
Author
You guys always leave me with the hard questions to answer 
Now you know why i make some of the brainstorming threads (payback)
As in any other business Dak, it all comes down to your position of power. If you have $30,000,000 behind you then you have some degree of establishing influence. Other wise its all risk, and there's nothing wrong with that i say Throw the dice and watch them fall. Some people are lucky and don't require money, sometimes you just need to have the gift of the gab. I guess this is where the saying comes in: "i wish you intelligence not luck because luck runs out" i love that saying. Think smart!!! That's what makes you who you are/correct?!
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Edited by - Paul Cunningham on September 9, 2000 1:32:57 PM
Now you know why i make some of the brainstorming threads (payback) quote: By Dak Lozar
I think that is what were here for but, we do have to pay attention to the politics involved.
As in any other business Dak, it all comes down to your position of power. If you have $30,000,000 behind you then you have some degree of establishing influence. Other wise its all risk, and there's nothing wrong with that i say
Throw the dice and watch them fall. Some people are lucky and don't require money, sometimes you just need to have the gift of the gab. I guess this is where the saying comes in: "i wish you intelligence not luck because luck runs out" i love that saying. Think smart!!! That's what makes you who you are/correct?!I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Edited by - Paul Cunningham on September 9, 2000 1:32:57 PM
This money thing, it seem like a really bad thing for me!
It seem to be cool at first...but
Think about it, some players will spend fortune in hope to make money, its like casino you loos more than you make.
This could be dangerous for many pepoles could ruins themself in hope to win the money! Like casino they will be suicides because of your game... this is true you don''t hear about it because they hide this type of thing for money!
No ones will play your game for fun....only for the money. This will hurt computer game reputation!
Some pepoles would actualy go crazy about your game...they will BELIVE they can earn a living out of this!
Don''t do this...
Make a fun game....you will make your money this way.
Paul, I hope you don''t really want to do this!
I may seem to be rude, but im really against this idea!
Delisk
It seem to be cool at first...but
Think about it, some players will spend fortune in hope to make money, its like casino you loos more than you make.
This could be dangerous for many pepoles could ruins themself in hope to win the money! Like casino they will be suicides because of your game... this is true you don''t hear about it because they hide this type of thing for money!
No ones will play your game for fun....only for the money. This will hurt computer game reputation!
Some pepoles would actualy go crazy about your game...they will BELIVE they can earn a living out of this!
Don''t do this...
Make a fun game....you will make your money this way.
Paul, I hope you don''t really want to do this!
I may seem to be rude, but im really against this idea!
Delisk
Author
quote: Original post by Delisk
No ones will play your game for fun....only for the money. This will hurt computer game reputation!
Delisk
So what you are saying overall it that becuase some people can''t control themselves when exposed to gambling then all of us should have to suffer by not having these elements in society. I think this attitude is wrong. I don''t think it''s good when governments allow these places to go crazy with the amount of machines etc. I don''t think gambing is wrong, in fact i think its a damn good experience.
Like it or lump it but gambling and games are constantly getting closer and closer. The only real problem that i can forsee is if people get begrudged by other players. At least in current gambling situations you have no-one to blame but yourself. So these games would have to be designed to aviod these situations otherwise you are completely correct in your statment "This will hurt computer game reputation"!
Competition gaming is nothing new, it all comes down to how it''s done. What i would really like to see is a profession areana open up where people can watch the best in the world gamers play it out. There''s nothing wrong with this.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
quote: Original post by Delisk
This money thing, it seem like a really bad thing for me!
(snip)
This could be dangerous for many pepoles could ruins themself in hope to win the money! Like casino they will be suicides because of your game... this is true you don't hear about it because they hide this type of thing for money!
No ones will play your game for fun....only for the money. This will hurt computer game reputation!
Some pepoles would actualy go crazy about your game...they will BELIVE they can earn a living out of this!
(snip)
First of all this isn't gambling.
Second it's not mandetory to play.
Third if you have no self control, then you deserve what you get.
An individual's life is about choices. Should I do this? What will be the outcome, if I don't do this?
Why should everyone suffer, at the weakness of a few? I live about 10 miles from a casino boat... I've never been because I choose not to gamble! And because when I was in the service, I had a friend that used to spend his entire pay gambling. Ususally losing everthing and then he would try to mooch off of me.
Your logic is backwards and warped
I understand that you may know someone who is a gambler and maybe it has affected you in some way... but, this is a personal choice of the gambler, not you or anyone else. I agree gambling can be bad for some people... but they are weak and in nature the week do not survive. Why should society continually cater to the weak as your suggesting? I say bring on these kinds of games. Our own GreatShot.com is something similar. It is a golf simulation that we have developed for Fuzzy Zoeller Productions. The jist of it is, you get 5 free shots at a par 3 hole. Closest to the pin finalist are then selected for the next round... etc... the 4 finalist get a chance at $1 million (US) dollars and to play a round of 18 with Fuzzy, along with some other perks.
After your 5 free shots, more shots can be purchased.
(10 Shots for $ 9.95)
(30 Shots for $19.95)
(70 Shots for $29.95)
At any rate, These kinds of games ARE going to be more prevailent, so get prepaired!
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
Edited by - Dak Lozar on September 10, 2000 11:37:17 AM
And soon you''ll get the same phenomenon than for team sports... hundreds of thousands of viewers watching the Rocket Arena final between Bananas In Pajamas, vs the Evil H4x0rs Death Team ?
Mmm, yes, I suppose we can''t do anything about it.
Can we ?
"Oh you poor amateur playes, you don''t understand, this is a sport, it''s not just a game !It''s Quake for fuck sake, so get off my server you llama!"
Yeah, I am really looking forward to see the same old shit happen again. Another medium polluted, but I guess you can''t expect anything else from us.
Please Paul, don''t thinkg I am trying to be insulting you here, I am just being really fatalist. In fact, I would encourage *you* to go ahead and do it the first, because anyway it''s gonna happen. At least if you start soon enough, you''ll be rich by the millions.
How I hate capitalism
Mmm, yes, I suppose we can''t do anything about it.
Can we ?
"Oh you poor amateur playes, you don''t understand, this is a sport, it''s not just a game !It''s Quake for fuck sake, so get off my server you llama!"
Yeah, I am really looking forward to see the same old shit happen again. Another medium polluted, but I guess you can''t expect anything else from us.
Please Paul, don''t thinkg I am trying to be insulting you here, I am just being really fatalist. In fact, I would encourage *you* to go ahead and do it the first, because anyway it''s gonna happen. At least if you start soon enough, you''ll be rich by the millions.
How I hate capitalism
ahw
You can''t mean that, can you? I mean, how do you get money to eat?
And only in a capitalist society could could you have the kind of creativity that has brought about the internet which, lets you communicate with all of us here on the board. That''s a good thing right? I mean, I have enjoyed reading your (and everyone else on the board) post. Without capitalism, I shudder to think what computers would be like. What cars would be like, planes... everything. I think your looking at capitalism from the wrong side...
I''m not going to try and change your mind, your free to your own opinions but, please look at all the good things that have been introduced because of capitalism. I know there is an evil side to capitalism but, I seriously doubt that the Soviet Union (pre break up) could have been all that great a place to be a creative person. Granted they had/have brilliant scientist and very creative people... but, they were stiffled by the beuracracy.
Back to your normal program, already in progress.
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
You can''t mean that, can you? I mean, how do you get money to eat?
And only in a capitalist society could could you have the kind of creativity that has brought about the internet which, lets you communicate with all of us here on the board. That''s a good thing right? I mean, I have enjoyed reading your (and everyone else on the board) post. Without capitalism, I shudder to think what computers would be like. What cars would be like, planes... everything. I think your looking at capitalism from the wrong side...
I''m not going to try and change your mind, your free to your own opinions but, please look at all the good things that have been introduced because of capitalism. I know there is an evil side to capitalism but, I seriously doubt that the Soviet Union (pre break up) could have been all that great a place to be a creative person. Granted they had/have brilliant scientist and very creative people... but, they were stiffled by the beuracracy.
Back to your normal program, already in progress.
Dave "Dak Lozar" Loeser
Author
When something new comes about it doesn''t change the element from where it came, it creates its own element, distinct from the mother element. Computer games are the same, if a new genre comes about from fps we won''t lose the fps genre, instead we''d have gained a new genre of games. I believe this would be true also if we had more online money competitions games.
Think about this too, a lot of gamers like you and i know what we like. I would say that there are hell of a lot of us that make up for a lot of the games purchased today. So when you create something like competition games then do you really think that all of us are going to stop buying normal games or would it be more likely that it would attract its own audience/customers? Thus, developers would keep making the games that we enjoy today.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Think about this too, a lot of gamers like you and i know what we like. I would say that there are hell of a lot of us that make up for a lot of the games purchased today. So when you create something like competition games then do you really think that all of us are going to stop buying normal games or would it be more likely that it would attract its own audience/customers? Thus, developers would keep making the games that we enjoy today.
I love Game Design and it loves me back.
Our Goal is "Fun"!
Of course, of course Dak Lozar. I am not THAT stupid. I am jsut being blatantly malhonest 
What I mean is that, there are good things in Capitalism, and Bad ones ... but do we really need to focus on the Bad ones ? Like putting money on everything ? Sometimes it''s nice to leave things without money. Yeah of course, a game couldn''t develop without money. But for instance, what do you pay when you pay to play onlin games ?? I mean, are you paying the network, the server needed to run the games, and the employees *maintaining* the game, or are you supporting the whole company while they are doing their net game, or are you just being milked like a cow that doesn''t know better ?
If a nice RTS is damn popular, do I have to come in with my dollar$ and soil it with all that competition spirit shit ? Mmmm, nope, you won''t convince me that *this* is a good side of capitalism. sorry
Paul : I''ll take your own argument and beat the shit out of you with it ... but just think about it better :
You bring the money in, you create a new class of players, professional players. They make money out of this, they *pay* money, big money, to keep doing this, they have sponsors, they are a few, but soon all people will start emulate them, because that''s how it works (don''t deny, please, just look at *ANY* professionalised sport around you !). And soon, *THEY* will become what counts in gaming. Not the mass of players avidly trying to become pro, but those few who make the most money in the business... and tell me Paul, in a capitalist world, whose voice counts the most, that of the artists, of the dreamer, or that of the customer, of the moneymaker ?
Do you really think that all players around the world would unite and say "hey! stop that shit Mr MoneyMaker! I wanna play my old interesting games that I enjooyed playing" And they would simply answer "Well, Mr Cunningham, this is the way to go, don''t be so backward, you have to go with the flow. We can''t affors not to please our best customers. Those RPG of yours, adventure games, and all the like, they are nice and well, but they are not watchable enough, they have no potential to make money for us ..."
ahemm ...
now do you really want that to happen soone than it will ? Or do you want to start resisting by first making games that will not be dismissed by a marketing manager ?
On the other hand, when MAgic the Gathering appeared, some years ago, everybody in France that played RPG thought that they would take over the world of RPG. And now, they kind of have, kind of haven''t. My favorite RPG dealer makes most of his money on cards now, but soon, those CCG will become so popular (meaning commercial) that they will be sold in the supermarket (POkemon is only the First Wave ), and with this, gone will be the days of interesting card games with plot, you''ll need marketing value, commercial value, etc. "too risky!", or "you can''t possibly make a game out of this topic!", or "hey, you got a CCG for the movie?" ...
ooooh, the nightmare ...
What I mean is that, there are good things in Capitalism, and Bad ones ... but do we really need to focus on the Bad ones ? Like putting money on everything ? Sometimes it''s nice to leave things without money. Yeah of course, a game couldn''t develop without money. But for instance, what do you pay when you pay to play onlin games ?? I mean, are you paying the network, the server needed to run the games, and the employees *maintaining* the game, or are you supporting the whole company while they are doing their net game, or are you just being milked like a cow that doesn''t know better ?
If a nice RTS is damn popular, do I have to come in with my dollar$ and soil it with all that competition spirit shit ? Mmmm, nope, you won''t convince me that *this* is a good side of capitalism. sorry
Paul : I''ll take your own argument and beat the shit out of you with it ... but just think about it better :
You bring the money in, you create a new class of players, professional players. They make money out of this, they *pay* money, big money, to keep doing this, they have sponsors, they are a few, but soon all people will start emulate them, because that''s how it works (don''t deny, please, just look at *ANY* professionalised sport around you !). And soon, *THEY* will become what counts in gaming. Not the mass of players avidly trying to become pro, but those few who make the most money in the business... and tell me Paul, in a capitalist world, whose voice counts the most, that of the artists, of the dreamer, or that of the customer, of the moneymaker ?
Do you really think that all players around the world would unite and say "hey! stop that shit Mr MoneyMaker! I wanna play my old interesting games that I enjooyed playing" And they would simply answer "Well, Mr Cunningham, this is the way to go, don''t be so backward, you have to go with the flow. We can''t affors not to please our best customers. Those RPG of yours, adventure games, and all the like, they are nice and well, but they are not watchable enough, they have no potential to make money for us ..."
ahemm ...
now do you really want that to happen soone than it will ? Or do you want to start resisting by first making games that will not be dismissed by a marketing manager ?
On the other hand, when MAgic the Gathering appeared, some years ago, everybody in France that played RPG thought that they would take over the world of RPG. And now, they kind of have, kind of haven''t. My favorite RPG dealer makes most of his money on cards now, but soon, those CCG will become so popular (meaning commercial) that they will be sold in the supermarket (POkemon is only the First Wave
), and with this, gone will be the days of interesting card games with plot, you''ll need marketing value, commercial value, etc. "too risky!", or "you can''t possibly make a game out of this topic!", or "hey, you got a CCG for the movie?" ... ooooh, the nightmare ...
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