I agree that swordfight simulator may not be interesting in a RPG, but there must be a way to avoid the usual health point conflict and add some extra fun to this part, else why not eliminate sword fights ? I find it pretty boring the way it is done currently...

If you want to have decent swordfights in a RPG, you must find a way to allow for more freedom than what currently exist.
If you can do it without adding some hotkeys then ok, but I don''t see how...
I think the extra fun might compensate the extra complication.
Two or three more keys would allow more diversity without making it looks like a Flight Simulator.

*adjusts his position*
Well, I''m glad you asked!

( Landfish is right, question-baiting really DOES work! )

What are the objectives:
More visceral combat, fast and deadly swordfighting.

What does this mean?: Defending, running away, hit locations, per-location damage, aimed attacks, incorporating shock, adrenalin, bloodloss...

How do we do it?:
Well we could go all turn-based, and give the user all of these options. But I think most people in this thread have agreed by now that this would be a bit too much like a strategy game, and probably not all that much fun to play. It would also destroy the FAST aspect that we were trying to achieve.

So, we''re down to real-time.
Now, I''m assuming this is PC-based, so we have this huge 104-key keyboard, and this pathetic little two-button mouse. ( sniff ).

Looking for good examples in the CRPG world - I don''t really know of any. Diablo was fun, fast combat, but hardly realistic or very deadly.

I''ll define a new system then.
It starts off simple - it''s a 2D Diablo-like game. Clicking right on a location moves there, clicking left on a location attempts to attack there, doing NOTHING if you cannot attack that location.

We now have only one attack, but we have separated movement by using a different button. So we support attacking and walking away. Not very visceral yet.

Lets think windows user interface - we can use single and double-clicking. Single-clicking left attacks. Double-clicking left blocks. Single-clicking right walks. Double-clicking right runs.

We haven''t used any extra buttons yet, but we now have attacking and defending, and walking and running away.

Much better! Except of course you may get repetitive strain injury clicking so much. But that happens anyway when you''re a computer nerd so nothing lost really.

Note that of course, your enemies will be able to do the same thing ( except the RSI bit ).

We haven''t really complicated gameplay either - just added "dimensions", and the defend action.

So what else did we want? Hit locations.
Thinking of what you see, the best hit locations would be head and arms, and possibly torso, ''cause in Diablo-like games, you can''t really see the rest of the body. Lets make the onscreen avatar respond to clicks in those locations. You click on an arm? It whacks the arm. You doubleclick on an arm? It performs a defense move that is most suited to blocking an attack from that arm.

Still, no real complication of the interface on the player side. It''s all done through the visualisation, and how it reacts to the player.

All the other points are internally tracked. They do not need player interference to occur. YOu could add triple-clicking for a "devastating blow" effect, or perhaps ONE key modifier, such as shift-single click, shift-doubleclick for "mighty attack", "heroic defense".

So now you need three fingers to control your guy, and you have a pretty interesting set of combat statistics!


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

I agree DM.. With three keys, it is easy to get your fingers to them and you can quickly negotiate. I think that my setup should be the keypad and the mouse for my game, so it should be fairly easy to stick those three keys into my control

MKV - I like this new stance... I always wondered if you could use a run-time selection on the little creatures body. That would mean that you would have to learn their patterns so that you could get an effective click in before they moved. It would bring the player into the game and actually teach them something about the game rules at the same time. Maybe the body part would highlight and you would then see what was being attacked.

Something that just came to mind - dirty tricks. How about allowing a kick to the groin or a headbut? Do we hotkey this or do we add in the center mouse button?

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Edited by - dwarfsoft on October 25, 2000 9:56:03 AM

quote: Original post by dwarfsoft
That would mean that you would have to learn their patterns so that you could get an effective click in before they moved.

Djeezes, I like this idea!
No really, I REALLLLLLY like this idea...
Imagine the big badass black, ermm, human male, exposes a "soft" area any time he does a "devastating blow." If you manage to click on this soft area before you get splattered across the flagstones, the human will be rolling around the floor wondering if he''ll ever be able to produce progeny again.

Dirty tricks combined with run-time selection!

Same thing works for attacks.
*Dang, his sword''s moving towards me! **CLICK CLICK CLICK** BLOCKED IT!*





People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

quote: Original post by MadKeithV

Guys guys guys - Naz is NOT talking about complicating the interface - he''s talking about improving the way a fight is handled. These kinds of 24-button interfaces have NO place in an RPG, they should be in a sword-fighting game.

People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

They have no place in a sword fighting game either. There is a point when too many buttons get in the way.

One thought I had while reading these posts. If we are talking about making the fights difficult, challenging, so that 2:1 odds are overwhelming, then there better not be random battles. In a situation where battles are difficult, generally you want to avoid them, and RPG''s have this really nasty reputation of frequent random battles.

Take for example Tenchu (action, I know, not an RPG, but hold on for a minute). Taking on 2 guys IS nearly impossible, unless you got some pretty mad skills. 3 is don''t right suicide. 4 and more is not, because you can use them against each other, when they swing at you, duck out of the way and they hit their buddy. But, the player almost never got into these situations because he opted to sneak and attack quietly. One hit kills could only be executed if the guy wasn''t ready, i.e. didn''t have his sword drawn, ready to attack, fully alert. Otherwise, if the guy is just walking around with his weapon put away, then you could kill him lickity split. Still though, I think one-hit-kills should be possible even after the guy is ready.

As for the realistic fighting being translated from 3d to 2d, I don''t think it would be impossible. Bushido Blades only use for the 3d was visual and a side step. That was it. A side step could easily be implemented in a 2d game, just with a little animation and allowing a miss.

One final idea brought from Bushido Blade. You could knock the NPC''s weapon out of the way (unfortunately not out of his hand completely) and leave him wide open for an attack. Just somthing to think about.

Are you even trying to be intelligent?
'cuz if you are, it ain't workin'

Thanks MKV. That is the most praise (and most meaningful) that I have ever got (even from my parents... Sad eh? ) Anyway, as I was trying to get to, would blocking be handled in the same way, like where the blow would be coming from, you have to block in that general region, or would that just complicate matters? I think that it may be too much of a complication for now.

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

It could be applied to blocking as well, but then there should be a "general" block as well, perhaps right-clicking on your own character?
This would attempt to block ANY incoming attack, with slightly less chance of succeeding than a directed block.


People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

What if you want to dodge? You could parry and dodge away and then attack into their body when they lunge at you. That would be cool, but I can''t see how you could do it without using hotkeys... Owell, something to ponder

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

I would first note that I am not interested in fast and realistic fights, but rather in heroic-like fighting, including jumping and grabbing the chandelier to swing across the room

I consider that with most weapons you can have two attacks and a blocking move, for example slash or thrust with a sword, puch or kick when you are bare-handed.

I try to group actions by kind : for example left click is action and right click is for movements

So I go for three keys :
left click on opponent -> attack one
Key1 + left click on opponent -> attack two
Key2 -> General block (Good Idea indeed)
Key2 + left click on opponent -> block
Key3 -> feint
Key3 + left click on opponent -> disarm or suchlike
left click on object -> normal action on object
Key1 + left click on object -> special action (overturn the table)
right click -> move
double right click -> run
Key1 + right click -> special move (jump on the table) or step back
Key2 + right click -> roll in the specified direction
Key3 + right click -> dodge in the specified direction

Of course actions should vary depending on the respective location of the player, opponent(s) and obstacles
Also I think like MK that clicking on the body part should be enough in terms of target location...