Quote: Original post by Wai
Suppose I associate a concept to an object as way to talk about the concept, what do I call the Object?

just "symbol"?

Sounds like a trope to me, but symbol would probably also be fine. And yes I agree that plotting seems easier when you don't know all the details of the story and that this is ironic. Similarly it's much easier to find the pattern of someone else's plot and make suggestions for improving it than it is to find a pattern in one's own scattered inspirations. I think this is a 'can't see the forest for the trees' problem, compounded by the fact that with one's own work one is more worried about getting everything perfect, while with others' work you can toss out various suggestions and trust that they will make whatever they consider to be the right choice.

When I was writing my last attempt at a plot outline I noticed that it was quite verbose compared to yours. I felt that I needed more context to keep track of emotions and why the various things were happening, but I also realized that this made the whole outline less clear. Splitting it into two parts, one more verbose and one pure formulas, is a good idea, I'd like to try that if I get time.

One interesting thing I noticed in playing with my outline is the repetition of the main character wearing various disguises to hide his identity, his nature, or some other fact about himself. Do you have any thoughts on what the plot symbolism of a disguise or personal secret might be?

Quote:
I think it might be better to break down X into two, because X has two parts that are dynamically different:

X: One shouldn't be forced to do something they don't want.
Y: One shouldn't refrain himself from doing something he truly wants.

constraints: X involves 2 or more characters. Y involves 1 character.

When I read (0.0), my thought was that M can't have X on himself, so (0.0) should have mentioned another character. So I thought M's conflict is actually Y. Did I guess right?

Actually no. [smile] M's problem in my 0.0 is that he doesn't know what would make him happy, in other words he doesn't know what would satisfy his X. As for Xs and Ys requiring 1 person or 2, what about the situation where another person is restraining someone from doing something he truly wants? What about the situation where doing what one truly wants requires another person's cooperation? I think that X and Y are the same because in all cases a person is being blocked from what they want, whether the block is themselves, another person, the world, or a lack of knowing what they want.

This ties into the way I rewrote M's goal - he does _not_ want to prove X because the question is not whether X is morally right; the fact that it is morally right is an underlying premise of the book. The question is whether it is practically achievable to enforce the fair satisfying of everyone's Xs, and what one ought to do about various types of conflict between what one person wants and what would satisfy another person's X. The answer is a complex, "Yes, it is right to try to enforce the satisfaction of everyone's X and the ethical method for doing so is...(as illustrated by M's choices and actions in the book)." Now, if only I could encode that into an elegant and entertaining series of specific incidents culminating in a dramatic and satisfying climax! lol

Re:

If I understand it correctly, X is:

Everyone should attain their true desire.

About the plot for hiding personal secret: I think to use the Letters, I need to know the desired ending. Do you want M to eventually reveal his secret or not? So far, to use the Letters, we need to know a beginning state (0.0) and the ending state (1.0).

"Everyone should attain their true desire", hmm, I think that oversimplifies. Because people who try to get their true desire in an unethical way don't deserve to get it, and also because the point is that people ought to proactively try to cause/help others attain their desires. Attaining one's true desire is not something that 'the world' does, or that a person can do independently, it requires people to care about each other and cooperate.

Yes, M has to shed each disguise/reveal each secret, because I think part of everyone's true desire is to be accepted and loved for their true self, and be safe from being criticized for following their instincts.

disguise plot trial 1:

0.0) M has three secrets: S1, S2, S3.
0.1) M wants to help char A1. In order to help A1, M must reveal S1.
0.2) M questions whether A1 is worth helping.
0.3) M wants to help char A2. Which requires M to reveal S2.
0.4) M learns that A2 is someone who would accept S1.
0.5) Knowing this, M helps A1 and reveals S1.
0.6) M assumes that A2 would also understand S2 and helps A2.
0.7) A2 rejects S2 and M.
0.8) M wants to help char A3. But doing so would reveal S3.
0.9) M helps S3, and assumes that M would be rejected forever. However, A2 learned S3, and finally understood S2.
1.0) A2 reunites with M. M realizes the way to get X is to reveal S1, S2, and S3.

~ Happy Ending ~

Hmm. Well the secrets aren't all there from the beginning - actually, none of them are there at the beginning. But maybe:

0.0) M wants to do Z
0.1) M finds person A who could help do Z, but person A won't help because of prejudice AP.
0.2) M disguises himself as N and then A will help.
0.3) But now M has to maintain this disguise through unexpected challenges while learning about its advantages and disadvantages. (x_X suddenly I am thinking of Mario transforming into frog Mario lol)
0.4) ... I want something different to happen here for each of the three iterations. Maybe once he flees, once he is caught by surprise when his disguise is penetrated, and once he choses to reveal himself. In one instance he fears rejection, but in the other instances he might fear that someone else would get hurt or he would have to give up something he likes. I'm not sure whether it matters what order these 3 variants happens in.
1.0) All of M's secrets have been revealed. Those who rejected him have been conquered or judged unimportant, and those who remain by his side are confirmed as a loyal lover and best friends.

Here's a revised logline too (lol well it's so long its more like a synopsis...)

Merru wants everyone to attain their true desires and thus be happy, but he can't even work towards attaining his own true desire because he doesn't know what it would be. By working to help other people attain their desires (via the use of manipulation and wearing disguises), and studying others to help them figure out what they really want, Merru accidentally acquires pieces of his own true desire. In the end all the characters including Merru work together and all successfully attain their true desires, and Merru comes to understand how all the pieces fit together to make him happy.

Maybe I'll do a Dramatica workup of this as a demonstration, would anyone be interested in seeing that?