Alright there, so as a fellow university student here in the US I can tell you some things at least. I'm actually in my last year, and I havent loved it either (for different reasons than yours, to be honest, but that's a story for a different time). I will say that it really does pay off in terms of career prospects. I myself signed on for a job (not game Developer related) and I will say that the investment can certainly have a return. I don't know a ton about the British system, but there are some things that seem very obvious.
1): you aren't in the right school. If you don't feel challenged, or feel that those professors are useless, then maybe you really should consider going elsewhere
2): you aren't super engaged either. This is a tough one, and to be honest, i think that many college students start feeling the futility of college at some point. The reasons can be very different, but the result is very similar. What's helped me is to take courses that aren't necessarily related to my major, but I find interesting nonetheless. I love foreign languages, so I decided to learn German, which was a great decision, not necessarily for the academic value, but for the fact that I found an outlet that I enjoyed. I also really love 3D Art, and I am currently taking a course in that. And you never know, these courses can certainly help yo out in your career as well.
University won't necessarily be the mind widening experience that it's sold to be (at least at first). It's really a means to an end in some ways, that end being a solid career. Yea there are people who dropped out of college and made it in the world, but it's a tiny minority compared to the guys who didn't. And there are plenty of examples of guys who went to Uni and made it with their careers. That and courses do open up more towards the end of the college spectrum. Push yourself through it, because the monetary investment will yield monetary return. My 2 cents at least.
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I'm not learning anything in university. Should I drop out?
Author
People who dislike their job are predisposed to be more vocal about why.
Yeah, this kind of makes sense. But still.. that guy sounds really convincing.
"Sometime around your 30th birthday you'll leave the industry in disgust and start over elsewhere, with nothing to show for the last decade of your life except unhealthy weight gain, a crippling pile of debt, and your name in the credits of a bunch of 6-out-of-10 video games. The industry will not miss you. Every year, thousands more kids march out the front doors of that same game college where you went, like a never-ending parade of clone troopers. The big publishers will be happy to hire them and let you wander off to figure out what to do with the rest of your life."
Josh, are you making 6/10 games?
Push yourself through it, because the monetary investment will yield monetary return. My 2 cents at least.
Yes, that's what I keep telling myself since 2nd grade. By the way, thanks for the heads up.
See that's pretty much why the degree is relevant, especially if it's something like computer science. It's really easy to switch into a different sector in tech if you end up wanting to do that. The opportunities are there, and as many have mentioned, if you don't have a degree, you won't have those choices.
So let's get it straight:
1. You dislike university studies. ("not learning anything at all", "hate myself for missing lectures", "it is so boring, I can't stand it", etc)
2. You hate your parents telling you how to live your life. (" I have to listen to my parents for now because they are paying the bills. Once I find a job, nobody can tell me shit.")
3. You think having a job and being on your own will free you from having to do what other people want. (above)
4. You think you've learned all that is valuable in your 1.5 years of study. ("I can figure stuff out on my own, I couldn't do it last year, but I can now. And the help and the knowledge I get from uni is not worth the money I pay into it and people aren't motivated enough and all the stuff wasn't the way I imagined it.")
5. You think it is harsh for employers to filter applicants based on things like degrees and diplomas, work experience, personal projects, and other characteristics. ("Harsh")
Taking them in order:
1. You get whatever value you create for it. If you use the opportunity to study and learn, to build a professional network, to grow and develop, then school can transform your life. However, if you just go to classes and do the assigned coursework, you aren't going to get much out of it.
2. Your parents are going to keep telling you how to live your life until they die. And if they stop, that is a bad sign.
3. Getting a job means you get additional people telling you what to do and how to do it. When you start you get your your manager, your boss, your mentor or trainer, and over time you'll get "dotted-line" bosses as well. The farther you advance in your career, the more you'll learn you have more bosses, not fewer. Those people who go independent and build things on their own, each boss has a small amount of say but they have the highest number of bosses of all.
4. You know NOTHING at your level. Students can only judge themselves by the people around them. You write that you are about average for your peers, maybe a little less. College graduates know NOTHING compared to industry professionals; the degree means you know enough not to completely destroy the code you are assigned to work in. Industry experts are faster and write better stuff by virtue of their experience. I've seen industry pros churn out code that was masters-degree and doctorate-degree worthy, but implement it in days rather than a months. I've implemented the same project as other people's master's projects -- they spent six months, I spent three days. A college graduate is an beginner, entry level programmer.
5. What he described was a simplification of how harsh it is. In reality it is often far worse. Your application gets a quick glance -- perhaps 5 seconds -- then gets set aside. First are the people who have degrees and industry experience. Then the people who have industry experience. Next up are degrees and personal projects. Then people with degrees. Then people with no degree and several personal projects. Finally, if they still haven't filled the position, people with no degrees and no experience. Many times there are hundreds of applicants, and finding people in the first and second group is trivially easy. The only reason to dig down to the dregs, the non-degree non-professional, is if there is something terribly wrong with the position. Maybe terrible pay so most professionals would reject it. Maybe terrible work conditions. Maybe terrible risk. Whatever the reason, if they're hiring at that level it means they're desperate to get a warm body to fill the chair but cannot hire a skilled, experienced worker.
Suck it up, do the task, get to work. If you want to be a professional game programmer then the task is getting your degree.
Taking a gap year is another possibility.
It is. But it requires approval from Head of Department, and I need to have a specific reason, like: caring for an elder person, having an internship, take part in an international exchange program etc. My reason is: Hi Mr [ name ], I want to take a gap year, because I first want to try to find a job without paying another 9k, and then if I can't find a job, I will come back next year so you can take my money.
AFAIK, you don't have to have a reason. The University can't stop you from having a gap year. Heck, even the UCAS website has 'taking a break from study' as a possible reason.
Yeah, this kind of makes sense. But still.. that guy sounds really convincing.
"Sometime around your 30th birthday you'll leave the industry in disgust and start over elsewhere, with nothing to show for the last decade of your life except unhealthy weight gain, a crippling pile of debt, and your name in the credits of a bunch of 6-out-of-10 video games. The industry will not miss you. Every year, thousands more kids march out the front doors of that same game college where you went, like a never-ending parade of clone troopers. The big publishers will be happy to hire them and let you wander off to figure out what to do with the rest of your life."
Josh, are you making 6/10 games?
I can't speak for that guy but it doesn't happen to everyone.
I've been working in the industry for 10 years
Did a BSc Games Degree, failed to get a job in the industry for a year because I wasn't good enough
Did a MSc (which was awesome) to get good enough
Worked on a bunch of 6/10 - 8/10 games for a bit at EA
Moved to the gambling industry and worked on slot machines to branch out a bit
Jumped to Facebook games with EA again
Tried the digital creative industry
Went back to games but now in the mobile sector
And finally joined a WebGL engine startup
I'm healthy, happy and completely debt-free.
Ultimately, what do you want out of this? What are you striving to become or to solve?
Author
1. You dislike university studies. ("not learning anything at all", "hate myself for missing lectures", "it is so boring, I can't stand it", etc) 2. You hate your parents telling you how to live your life. (" I have to listen to my parents for now because they are paying the bills. Once I find a job, nobody can tell me shit.") 3. You think having a job and being on your own will free you from having to do what other people want. (above) 4. You think you've learned all that is valuable in your 1.5 years of study. ("I can figure stuff out on my own, I couldn't do it last year, but I can now. And the help and the knowledge I get from uni is not worth the money I pay into it and people aren't motivated enough and all the stuff wasn't the way I imagined it.") 5. You think it is harsh for employers to filter applicants based on things like degrees and diplomas, work experience, personal projects, and other characteristics. ("Harsh")
Man, I feel awkward when you do psychological portraits like that. But I actually said all that stuff... I was venting.
5. What he described was a simplification of how harsh it is. In reality it is often far worse. Your application gets a quick glance -- perhaps 5 seconds -- then gets set aside.
You are trying to scare me off. Why would someone with experience apply for an entry-level position. And why are you trying to scare me off?
"Students can only judge themselves by the people around them. You write that you are about average for your peers, maybe a little less"
I didn't explicitly said that, but I guess I subconsciously think that way.
But still, frob, I don't do game related stuff, my computer science degree has nothing at all with making games. I'm just kind of doing it as a hobby, because uni is boring, and I was just venting because I actually pay 24 pounds to keep myself bored at lectures.
However, if you just go to classes and do the assigned coursework, you aren't going to get much out of it.
frob, are you serious about that, because that's what I'm doing. No one of my classmates can help me build a professional network. I'm sure. All my friends are getting me into trouble because I have to send my coursework to like 15 people every time. I think the university should pay me because for only one year at uni, I maybe sent my code 100-120 times to people who wouldnt have passed the year without me.
Those people who go independent and build things on their own, each boss has a small amount of say but they have the highest number of bosses of all.
What do you mean by that?
I'm healthy, happy and completely debt-free.
Man, you didnt list them in the proper order of importance.
You are debt-free, healthy and happy.
What do you mean by that?
The 'boss' are the users/customers.
Re-iterating the question as it may have gotten missed:
"Ultimately, what do you want out of this? What are you striving to become or to solve?"
Edit:
because we are like 100 people in a group and everyone wants to ask something.
Aren't you part of the problem by doing the following?
All my friends are getting me into trouble because I have to send my coursework to like 15 people every time. I think the university should pay me because for only one year at uni, I maybe sent my code 100-120 times to people who wouldnt have passed the year without me.
Author
"Ultimately, what do you want out of this? What are you striving to become or to solve?"
I don't know. I try to not think about stuff ahead of time, because, in the long run, nothing makes sense. But I just want to keep learning new things every day and be productive and do stuff that makes me jump out of bed in the morning.
But if frob is not scaring me off, then this probably won't happen at all, so I better change my mindset about university and about some other stuff.
But I've always wanted to make a game with other people where everybody does the stuff he can do and we kind of work in a team and do something cool, but I asked so many people if they want to help me make a game, but everybody says he got too much work and no free time, that's why I do stuff on my own, but it's not as fun as doing it with other people. It's like playing counter strike with bots. It's ok for wasting time but it's not so much fun.
Aren't you part of the problem by doing the following?
I said no to one guy, but now he looks at me like I ate his breakfast. And I don't care, I see that most of the guys don't like programming at all, they just want to finish uni and find a job, that's why I just send them code without explaining anything, let them do whatever they want.
1. You dislike university studies. ("not learning anything at all", "hate myself for missing lectures", "it is so boring, I can't stand it", etc) 2. You hate your parents telling you how to live your life. (" I have to listen to my parents for now because they are paying the bills. Once I find a job, nobody can tell me shit.") 3. You think having a job and being on your own will free you from having to do what other people want. (above) 4. You think you've learned all that is valuable in your 1.5 years of study. ("I can figure stuff out on my own, I couldn't do it last year, but I can now. And the help and the knowledge I get from uni is not worth the money I pay into it and people aren't motivated enough and all the stuff wasn't the way I imagined it.") 5. You think it is harsh for employers to filter applicants based on things like degrees and diplomas, work experience, personal projects, and other characteristics. ("Harsh")
Man, I feel awkward when you do psychological portraits like that. But I actually said all that stuff... I was venting.
5. What he described was a simplification of how harsh it is. In reality it is often far worse. Your application gets a quick glance -- perhaps 5 seconds -- then gets set aside.
You are trying to scare me off. Why would someone with experience apply for an entry-level position. And why are you trying to scare me off?
"Students can only judge themselves by the people around them. You write that you are about average for your peers, maybe a little less"
I didn't explicitly said that, but I guess I subconsciously think that way.
But still, frob, I don't do game related stuff, my computer science degree has nothing at all with making games. I'm just kind of doing it as a hobby, because uni is boring, and I was just venting because I actually pay 24 pounds to keep myself bored at lectures.
However, if you just go to classes and do the assigned coursework, you aren't going to get much out of it.frob, are you serious about that, because that's what I'm doing. No one of my classmates can help me build a professional network. I'm sure. All my friends are getting me into trouble because I have to send my coursework to like 15 people every time. I think the university should pay me because for only one year at uni, I maybe sent my code 100-120 times to people who wouldnt have passed the year without me.
Those people who go independent and build things on their own, each boss has a small amount of say but they have the highest number of bosses of all.What do you mean by that?
I'm healthy, happy and completely debt-free.
Man, you didnt list them in the proper order of importance.
You are debt-free, healthy and happy.
frob isn't trying to scare you off. His points are extremely valid. That is the reality of how the hiring process in any computer science related field works. Let's make this very clear: no one is saying don't pursue a career in the software industry if you want to.
What we are trying to say is the following: you will very nearly certainly not get a job in any field in the software industry without a degree. On the off chance that you managed to find a job (which is extremely unlikely by the way), you will almost certainly be working more for less money. You will be at a severe disadvantage compared to anyone else who is seeking the same job.
Look many of the folks telling you that they are industry professionals who've been in the field for years know their shit. Don't disregard what they are saying.
What do you mean by that?
The 'boss' are the users/customers.
Re-iterating the question as it may have gotten missed:
"Ultimately, what do you want out of this? What are you striving to become or to solve?"
This question here is damned important. Why are you in school for computer science? What do you want to do? That's what is really important here.
"Ultimately, what do you want out of this? What are you striving to become or to solve?"I don't know. I try to not think about stuff ahead of time, because, in the long run, nothing makes sense. But I just want to keep learning new things every day and be productive and do stuff that makes me jump out of bed in the morning.
But if frob is not scaring me off, then this probably won't happen at all, so I better change my mindset about university and about some other stuff.
But I've always wanted to make a game with other people where everybody does the stuff he can do and we kind of work in a team and do something cool, but I asked so many people if they want to help me make a game, but everybody says he got too much work and no free time, that's why I do stuff on my own, but it's not as fun as doing it with other people. It's like playing counter strike with bots. It's ok for wasting time but it's not so much fun.
I just saw this. About frob, see my above points. I'll just reiterate that that's the process even for entry level positions. And yes, experience can come from things like internships.
Really think hard about what you want to do. It seems that you are interested in computer science at the minimum.
As far as making a game with others goes...look it's really tough to get things like that off the ground with other students. People have all sorts of commitments that they have to do. And to be fair, not everyone really wants to code all the time while doing it all the time in Uni. My own Uni has more of a scene, but it's not as easy to do stuff on one's own time. It really sounds like that your Uni isn't a good fit. I would strongly consider a gap year and/or transferring to another Uni. And there's probably people here who would be more than willing to help out on hobbyist projects.
If it's game making that you want to do, you can do that once you have a degree. It's not that far man. You're talking about 1 more year of college, which is less than an actual year. You've gotten this far, it's just a little bit further, then you have the freedom to choose your career in computer science.
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