12. I have this great char named Ray, I''ve managed to finally get him to lvl 5, its incredible considering perm death. So for about a month of rl playtime this is going pretty good, I''ve gotten to know some nice chars i like to group with.---->

---->

Oops I died, I must make a new char, but hey I cant call him ray! I''ve already created 12334 characters and I''m running out of names (go figure his name is ray). I created a new character he is lvl 1, I told my old group that this new char named Jay is actually ray they just laughed at me. Crap I''m not gonna play this game again, nobody recognized me as that buff lvl 5 anyways. Hey they are all dead now as well who cares.

The first MUD that came out has been pay-to-play (by the hour, I believe, at least for most of its history) and continued running for almost 20 years... and that had permadeath as well as many PvP elements. That was popular enough, and spawned a billion and one imitators... the key is in how you design your game. It needs to be a game where ''player'' skills and attributes are important, not ''character'' skills and attributes. A player shouldn''t feel like they''ve lost ''everything''... as that will include investment and interest in your game. They should be able to carry some ''player knowledge'' forward that lets them get back to where they were quicker than they did in the first place. For example, it helps if you can carry your name forward when you die to a new character so that you don''t lose your social circle. Maybe this screws with your roleplaying scenario, but I don''t feel this is a good environment for high-detail, ultra-realism, enforced roleplaying.

I would try to sum this up in some sort of maxim: Stat or skill-based character progression, permadeath, and player vs. player dynamics are all nice game models, but you can only successfully combine 2 of those 3.

Guys, the reason most of your can''t see Perm. Death in a RPG (let alone PvP) environment is because you have been poisoned by current MMORPGs systems. Like many people have said it belongs in an entirely different game. This is not to say it doesn''t belong in an RPG game, actually I''m trying to prove how a game with Perm Death is by far more in tune with roleplaying than respawn penalties. (as someone previously stated) The key factor is how easy it is to die. When most people think of perma death they think "omg, if EQ had perma death we''d never make it out of newbie-dom!" And in every way this is very true. In a game like EQ (and every other major MMORPG on the market) it is way too easy to die. There is no inbetween, you''re rither fully alive, or dead (EQ did have unconcious, though that was a joke). If implimented this would make death an extreme. Also, which is the reason this is by far the most beneficial trait (perma death) of upcoming MMORPGs, you have severe risk involved in any action. This isn''t EQ''s risk vs Reward where you risk "dieing" and losing xp and time. It''s you risk losing it all and you act very much accordingly. If you kill someone you are very much accountable for your actions by the friends\guild\race of that person. Random pking might try to surface in the beginning of such a game but will shrivel up and die. As to why this is there are far too many reasons to list ranging from RPG standpoints to gameplay and grief player personas. If you are interested in these check out the Dawn message board (www.glitchless.com). The thing I most agree with, from what people have said here is, "Permanent Death is not for everyone." And this could not be more true...
IT IS ONLY FOR THE TRUEST ROLEPLAYERS
Do not try to take this as an insult to you if you don''t like permanent death and you consider yourself a roleplayer. Perhaps you''ll just need to play a well developed game with permanent death before you realize this. But take a moment and think about the implications permanent death will have in a game...try thinking outside of the box a little bit on this one (the box being standard MMORPGs currently on the market). Think of your ideal MMORPG and decided if you think perma death would have a place in it.
I once made the argument that any good fantasy game has to have a realistic base (physics, AI, etc.) and the best fanatasy games will have perfect realism balanced by amazing fantasy. Permanent death belongs in that game.

Amarok Windburn
(I have much more I can say on this topic so please disagree =)

Also, if you have poitns you want to bring up to disput what I said please make them short statements and not a thesis.
ie
Lag Death
Mom picks up the phone
etc

Even if at the end you don''t agree with me still debate your point, someone once said...
It is better to debate something and not settle it then to settle something without debating it.

Amarok Windburn

PvP and Perm Death:

Perhaps you could incorporate a sort of reincarnation system into the game. The character would be identified by his soul, then material name.

1. People would recognize you even if you die.
2. You could develop characteristics in the soul of your character which could turn out to be really kewl.
3. You would have 2 levels, spiritual, and physical.

quote: They should be able to carry some ''player knowledge'' forward that
lets them get back to where they were quicker than they did in the first place. For example, it helps if you can carry your
name forward when you die to a new character so that you don''t lose your social circle.

Sounds to me like the character never perm died, he just died and was penalized be it eq/exp/ or stats its just a penalty.

RE: Amarok Windburn


Your utopia of a perm death world is all very nice, but you still havent adressed the problems of lag, or perhaps you are talking about LAN games?


Spyder

I would like it if my character could be killed permenantly. The risk would add to the game in my opinion. Having some 50th level mage would actually mean more than *head wobbling left to right* "I''ve played this game for 43,079 hours".

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!