Yes, you deffinity have to make the player somehow value their loved ones for it to work the way we would like to see it work. Making the player work for it is one way. Is it a status symbol to have a child in a game? Or maybe the player values them for their functionality. If so then they must offer the player something in return for looking after them. But what?
Some thoughts are:
* Being able to continue play once the original character dies (under the conditions of perma death).
* Family NPC''s that can support the player in difficult times in the game. (If you have a family to go to when you''ve been in battle then you can heal faster is one way).
* The ability to make *family* companies within the game which have certain advantages over guilds ie. the ability to become royalty.
* If your main character achieved feats that got extra recongnition by important "Power Groups" within the game you''re family members could benefit. Now suppose that other people can player your children. It brings a whole new element to "Gaming Communities* wouldn''t it!? You could even have family halls of fame. People might request to be in your family offline then they''d have to give you something or maybe one of your children might screw them without your permission so they can get into your family.

I love Game Design and it loves me back.

Our Goal is "Fun"!

Actually one of the 2 Perma Death games I''ve discussed is implimenting reproduction. The game is Atriarch. In it you are able to asexually reproduce. In doing so your "child" is able to be played by a new player joining the game or by you after you die. If after you die, you in habit your child. You gain all the possesions (except what was one you when you died) and the political power your former character had. But since this is a new character (and a child) it has none ofthe skills you had. In that area you have to start over.

Amarok Windburn

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Basically what it is going to come down to is to play and compete in MMORPGs you are going to want to invest as much (not necessarily dollar wise) in a solid fast connection as as fast processor.

Not at all! Where on earth do you get information to back up that opinion? It is simply not true, not for my friends in the US and certainly not in the majority of the world where even a modem connection probably costs more than the game itself.

quote:
I wish you were right but a game needs to be designed around roleplaying for people to be able to roleplay.

This is wrong too. See MUSHes. It''s not necessarily to do with the game, it''s to do with the players you are supporting. Many games that aren''t built for RP are actively encouraging other gameplay types, but you don''t need to -explicitly- make a game for roleplaying in order to roleplay.

Kylotan
You misunderstand what I said. To compete in online games (especially MMORPGs) a solid, fast connection is needed to prevent lag. Just as much as a fast computer is required to play (even a single player game) at the speed it is intended to run. I give you the example of Quake. If you are playing in a game and every 10 seconds your connection hiccups, and you stop recieving\sending information for a few seconds, what chance do you think you have of competeing with those other 9 players?
As to a modem costing more than the game itself, I agree completely as I never said it didn''t. I made a comparison between the IMPORTANCE (sorry I don''t know how to italicize) of a solid fast connection and a fast processor, not the dollar amount (as in you ought to spend 400 on a connection and 400 on a processor). As to the information backing up my opinion, would you play a single player game with a processor that could barely run the game, let alone at a playable speed? I doubt it. The same goes for the connection solidity and speed for online games.

I''m afraid you have me at a loss, I have never heard of a MUSH. And as far as a game not built for rp actively encouraging other gameplay types, I''m not sure what other gameplay types you are talking about. The post was refering to a roleplaying game. In a RP game you either RP or you don''t. I''ve given the example of 2 very popular MMORPGs that claim to encourage RP but aren''t designed around it, EQ and AC. They games are designed around lvling, killing the next super NPC (dragon, god, etc) and getting the next super item. What ends up happening is a player base that RPs sometimes, but most of the time just powergames\lvls and camps items (for no RP reason). Do you think anyone who ever killed a dragon in EQ had a RP reason for doing so? As I said before, it would be nice if a game not designed around RP would have a strong enoughplayer base to RP, but the fact is it hasn''t happened yet and I''m not holding my breath.
Even if you wanted to roleplay in a game like that it is immensely difficult if everyone around doesn''t RP. Take this scenario:
RPer- "Greetings, fair lady! May I be of service to you this fine day?"
Typical Gamer- "What?"
RPer- "You seem to be having trouble with bandits. I offer my services to assist you in defeating them."
TG- "listen to me you newbie, I''ve been camping these bandits for 3 hrs, if you so much as touch one of them I''ll petition a GM and have you banned!"
Not exactly a RP dialogue wouldn''t you say? My point is simply, in MMORPGs (perhaps not in MUSHs, whatever those are) a game needs to be designed around RP for players to RP. Ask anyone who has tried to RP (outside of their circle of friends) in any of the current MMORPGs and they''ll give you the same answer.

Amarok Windburn

Real roleplaying *does* exist online... just not in any of the mainstream online worlds. There are a number of text-based MU*s (generally MUSHes, MUCKs or MUXes, since MUDs tend to be hack-and-slash). They''re usually very small, averaging 10-30 players online at a time. But when everyone''s roleplaying, that''s plenty of people. Everything''s done with text, from pre-written descriptions of rooms and characters to real-time descriptions of the character''s actions. There''s usually no stats, no coded combat, no NPCs... and nothing to do *except* roleplay, which is why it works.

Death in these environments is almost always a choice of the player. If they want to kill their characters off, whether for dramatic reasons or because they''re tired of them or because they feel it''s the only realistic outcome, then they do. On the other hand, these deaths are *not* necessarily permanent, and resurrections of various kinds are fairly common. But this is really an different situation than your typical MMORPG, where death is involuntary and represents a loss of many hours gaming effort, rather than a carefully planned plot element in a roleplaying scenario.

-Moth

quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Kylotan
You misunderstand what I said. To compete in online games (especially MMORPGs) a solid, fast connection is needed to prevent lag.

I still think you are very wrong. You go on to talk about Quake, but the simple fact is that Quake is -far- more demanding of a fast connection than any MMORPG is. In fact, I would say that a lot of people enjoy MMORPGs in a way that they could not enjoy Quake or Unreal simply because it is less reliant on speed and reaction times.

quote: I made a comparison between the IMPORTANCE (sorry I don''t know how to italicize) of a solid fast connection and a fast processor, not the dollar amount (as in you ought to spend 400 on a connection and 400 on a processor).

I still think this is unrealistic. Most people will not buy the processor to just play one game, so they''re not going to pay an equivalent amount just so they can play your game smoothly.

quote: As to the information backing up my opinion, would you play a single player game with a processor that could barely run the game, let alone at a playable speed?

Yes, I would, and do. Thief:TDP was a struggle on a P233 with a 1st generation 3DFX card, but it was worth it. The fact is, we aren''t all going to (or are even able to) upgrade these things just for a game here or there.

But the essence of the argument is this: you said: "to play and compete in MMORPGs you are going to want to invest as much (not necessarily dollar wise) in a solid fast connection as as fast processor.". And I assert that no, most people Do Not want to spend that much money on their connection, and they Do Not currently do that either.

quote: I''m afraid you have me at a loss, I have never heard of a MUSH.

May I respectfully suggest you research more online games and get to know the genre a little more before you start talking philosophy then? Multiplayer online games didn''t start with Ultima Online, and nor did many of the issues that these games now face.

quote: Ask anyone who has tried to RP (outside of their circle of friends) in any of the current MMORPGs and they''ll give you the same answer.

Again, this is a symptom of what those games -are- designed for, not what they -aren''t- designed for. See the distinction? My tabletop wasn''t designed for roleplaying either but it''s seen a campaign or two. These things are what you make them.