Quote: Original post by paulecoyote
Sorry to be a pain but do you (or anyone?) have a link or can tell me what to look for in the sdk download that confirms this?

Sorry, I got nothing...

Quote: I guess it's if the End User Redistributable package for the August SDK that Microsoft produces itself actually installs MDX 1.1 and 2.0 then I guess it's okay, right?

Yes, that's what I'm talking about.

Managed DirectX will stop working in a few weeks

More at Dave Weller's blog

I'm afraid this means that MDX2.0 will not be an acceptable technology for 4E5 submissions - looks like my earlier information was incorrect, sorry.

Quote: Original post by superpig

Quote: Original post by MegaNeg
1) Would taking of items upon defeat at a battle suffice to cover the Economics requirement? (One idea im tossing around is a game that mimmiks Japan battle games like Pokemon or Yugioh, and Im thinking the winner gets to keep the looser's monster or card)

Not really; the key word is trade.

Not to be a smartarse or anything, but surely the key word is economics. There are plenty of economic systems that don't involve trade or money. It would have been nice if the rules hadn't mentioned trade. There may have been some creative interpretations.

For instance, instead of a fully modeled market system as suggested, someone may have implemented a democratic economy with associated decision-making processes or maybe a feudal system where peasants work the land for a lord who takes a percentage of their produce.

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster

Quote: Original post by superpig

Quote: Original post by MegaNeg
1) Would taking of items upon defeat at a battle suffice to cover the Economics requirement? (One idea im tossing around is a game that mimmiks Japan battle games like Pokemon or Yugioh, and Im thinking the winner gets to keep the looser's monster or card)

Not really; the key word is trade.

Not to be a smartarse or anything, but surely the key word is economics.

Heh.
Well, "Economics" is merely the name of the element. It's the description of the element, as displayed, that people need to be referring to.

Secondly, bear in mind that when I'm giving advice in here I'm generally trying to be conservative with my recommendations. If you read "economics" as "trade," you'll be very clearly in the safe zone. If you want to try interpreting it more "creatively" than that then you can, but you will find yourself in that grey area where it's very difficult to tell if you're actually fulfilling the requirement or not. (Consider rule #15).

Quote: For instance, instead of a fully modeled market system as suggested, someone may have implemented a democratic economy with associated decision-making processes or maybe a feudal system where peasants work the land for a lord who takes a percentage of their produce.

Which could be interesting, but entries that run on mobile phones could be interesting too, and they're not acceptable either. Part of the challenge of the contest is finding a design that fits the constraints laid down by the elements. If you want to break those constraints in your project, you're free to persue that outside the contest.

Quote: Original post by superpig
Heh.
Well, "Economics" is merely the name of the element. It's the description of the element, as displayed, that people need to be referring to.

The description seems to imply that economics = trade. All I'm saying is that economics is more than that and it would have been nice to see how people interpret "economics" when not explicitly told to involve trade. It probably wouldn't have made any difference as the market system is pretty entrenched (especially in gaming). On the other hand, feudalism, emblems and Europe do go rather well together.

You see, I'm not participating in 4e5 so I'm using my spare time to complain about things.

Quote: Secondly, bear in mind that when I'm giving advice in here I'm generally trying to be conservative with my recommendations. If you read "economics" as "trade," you'll be very clearly in the safe zone. If you want to try interpreting it more "creatively" than that then you can, but you will find yourself in that grey area where it's very difficult to tell if you're actually fulfilling the requirement or not. (Consider rule #15).

Oh, I didn't mean to say an element should be interpreted creatively in the sense of ignoring its description.

Quote:

Quote: For instance, instead of a fully modeled market system as suggested, someone may have implemented a democratic economy with associated decision-making processes or maybe a feudal system where peasants work the land for a lord who takes a percentage of their produce.

Which could be interesting, but entries that run on mobile phones could be interesting too, and they're not acceptable either. Part of the challenge of the contest is finding a design that fits the constraints laid down by the elements.

No doubt. Nevertheless, you don't want constraints that just encourage tired old gaming cliches. There's no challenge in that.

Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster
The description seems to imply that economics = trade. All I'm saying is that economics is more than that and it would have been nice to see how people interpret "economics" when not explicitly told to involve trade. It probably wouldn't have made any difference as the market system is pretty entrenched (especially in gaming). On the other hand, feudalism, emblems and Europe do go rather well together.

True. I was always taught that "Economics is the study of the allocation of scarce [i.e. non-finite] resources to competing wants [demands]." It might have been nice to explore traditional or command economies, but I guess that will just have to be left for next time.

Quote: You see, I'm not participating in 4e5 so I'm using my spare time to complain about things.

[grin] I'm grateful for the feedback, seriously. It's all helpful when it comes to planning next year's contest.

Quote: Nevertheless, you don't want constraints that just encourage tired old gaming cliches. There's no challenge in that.

Well, there's still challenge in the implementation of those cliches, but I see and agree with your point - we want to encourage people to create original and interesting games. My stance is that trade-focused economics still allows designers enough freedom to avoid any cliches - you can play with things like black market trading, cartels, the effects of monopoly/oligopolgy, government taxes and subsidies, etc.

Alas, I came upon the competition (having last seen it a few years ago, I think) only recently. Nevertheless, I intend to at least attempt the contest, despite the limited amount of time available. It's worth a shot, I'd say. :)

I do have a few questions, however.

Firstly, an idea occurred to me that I wanted to check on. Would it be acceptable to use the distinct (and marked and important) lack of the elements, instead of the presence of them? For instance (to take a fairly arbitrary idea), would the following idea be acceptable:

Interdimensional aliens have, through powerful and highly advanced alien technology, removed all of Europe from the Earth for use as an experimental facility. These beings lack emotion, and thus seek to study human emotion, to them a strange and, well, alien phenomenon. However, this has dire consequences for Earth (about which they, lacking emotion, care not): the sudden loss of mass has destabilised the Earth's orbit. In order to avert planetary disaster, the player character chases after the aliens, determined to foil their plans and restore the missing continent to its place. His only clue: a recent, half-chance discovery that the aliens have a particular dislike of a certain symbol, one common in the dimensions through which they travel, but which in their language (through some incredible chance) translates as something that (in this case erroneously) indicates danger. Hence they remove it wherever the travel to reduce the chance of others of their kind being put off by it. Thus the human can track them by noting the trail of missing symbols.

Thus we have as a plot point the aliens' lack of emotion (which could be worked into the gameplay too, as perhaps part of solving puzzles or challenges by remembering that they have no emotions). We have the lack of a symbol as being a major clue in determining where to go. And finally, we have the sudden lack of Europe as the starting point for the story.

(I'm not yet certain of how to fit in the distinct lack of economy as a feature, but you get the idea, I imagine.)

I'm not currently planning on using such "elements" at the moment, but I would like to find out how much creative leeway we have here, and the ...

Secondly, for the emotion element, should emotion be a part of the gameplay itself, or is it sufficient to simply attempt to stir emotions in the player (beyond "ooh, fun," of course - I'm referring to, for instance, plot twists intended to induce anger or sorrow, or sections intended to be frightening), and if so to the latter, how much does the effectiveness of such things on the judges weigh?

Thirdly, we're required to stay within AO. In terms of violence, the page linked to in the rules says that an AO game "... may include prolonged scenes of intense violence... ", while an M title "... may contain intense violence, blood and gore... ". My question, then, is of where the line falls in terms of violence and violent content. My current storyline involves some violent imagery as part of the emotional impact for a certain point, but I think that it can be toned down to fit within the restriction requirement...

Fourthly, it has been mentioned that third party engines are allowed, and indeed encouraged, but I would like to check on the one that I'm interested in using, for safety's sake: is the Wintermute Engine an acceptable as an engine for a game, both in terms of the legal requirements and in terms of the entry being valid?

(In terms of the legality, I quote from their FAQ:

Quote: Q: Can I use WME to make a freeware game?
A: Yes. WME is free for non-commercial use.

Q: Is it possible to use WME to make a commercial game?
A: Yes, it is possible, but you will have to obtain a separate commercial license. The licencing fees will be discussed on a case-by-case basis. Please enquire with the developer about what would be fair in your particular case.

My entry would be freeware, but I'm not sure whether this being for a competition might affect the determination...)

(*sigh* I would love to code an entry in C++, using 2D OpenGL graphics, but with less than two months remaining I doubt that I'll find time, so 2D in a third-party game engine it is. Ah well, maybe next year... Which in fact brings me to my final question.)

I understand that there quite probably won't be a strong answer for this at this early stage, but it's worth a shot, I think: Finally, will there be a Four Elements Contest next year? I seem to recall noticing a gap between some of the contests, although the reply above this one (

Quote: I'm grateful for the feedback, seriously. It's all helpful when it comes to planning next year's contest.

) is encouraging... If so, will it be likely to take place at the same time of year as this one (i.e. starting at the beginning of June)?

I'll admit, by the way, that I'm tempted to create a game based on all of the previous elements (earth, air, fire, water, pirates, zombies, ninjas and robots, if I'm not much mistaken), and even have an idea for such a game - Cap'n Bloodservo and the Shadow Corpses, a humorous little action game that sees the eponymous robot pirate rescuing his crew and lady-love from zombie ninjas (or ninja zombies, or both) and their zombie-master. I could even manage to fit the current four elements into it, I think... but I think that I prefer my current (and more serious) idea for now, and I don't think that I'll have time to do Cap'n Bloodservo justice this time around, at least.

Quote: Original post by Thaumaturge
Firstly, an idea occurred to me that I wanted to check on. Would it be acceptable to use the distinct (and marked and important) lack of the elements, instead of the presence of them? For instance (to take a fairly arbitrary idea), would the following idea be acceptable:

...

Hmm. In what you've proposed, I'd say Emotion and Emblem are certainly satisfied - the concept of emotion is a major element in your story, and you will need to make a big deal out of the emblem in order for the player to notice when it's missing.

Europe, however, I'm afraid is not. You'd need to set the game on Europe within the alien spaceship (and showing what's happening to Earth via "meanwhile, back on Earth" cutscenes or something). Thinking about it, you could have a lot of fun if you said that the Aliens were warping space to make Europe easier to store, allowing the player to walk around within London but then step out of London and into Paris or something. There's a lot of scope for Psychonauts-style visual crazyness there I think.

As for economics, it all depends on what you want to do with it...

Quote:
Secondly, for the emotion element, should emotion be a part of the gameplay itself, or is it sufficient to simply attempt to stir emotions in the player (beyond "ooh, fun," of course - I'm referring to, for instance, plot twists intended to induce anger or sorrow, or sections intended to be frightening), and if so to the latter, how much does the effectiveness of such things on the judges weigh?

It's the latter - "Your game must heavily feature, or make a clear effort to evoke in the player," in the Element definition on the contest page. As for how they effect the judges, don't worry too much about it - even if we're not scared/shocked/elated by what you do, we'll still be looking for things where you're clearly making an effort to do it.

Quote: Thirdly, we're required to stay within AO. In terms of violence, the page linked to in the rules says that an AO game "... may include prolonged scenes of intense violence... ", while an M title "... may contain intense violence, blood and gore... ". My question, then, is of where the line falls in terms of violence and violent content. My current storyline involves some violent imagery as part of the emotional impact for a certain point, but I think that it can be toned down to fit within the restriction requirement...

It's difficult to draw the line, as always. As an off-the-top-of-my-head example, I'd recommend playing the Prey demo and looking for what happens to the grandfather character - any more violent than that and you're probably pushing it too far.

Quote: Fourthly, it has been mentioned that third party engines are allowed, and indeed encouraged, but I would like to check on the one that I'm interested in using, for safety's sake: is the Wintermute Engine an acceptable as an engine for a game, both in terms of the legal requirements and in terms of the entry being valid?

It looks OK to me. We're not planning on selling the games - the most we might do is show them off at GDC - so we're usually qualified as non-commercial.

Quote: Finally, will there be a Four Elements Contest next year?

Yes.

Quote: If so, will it be likely to take place at the same time of year as this one (i.e. starting at the beginning of June)?

Yes.

Quote: Thinking about it, you could have a lot of fun if you said that the Aliens were warping space to make Europe easier to store, allowing the player to walk around within London but then step out of London and into Paris or something. There's a lot of scope for Psychonauts-style visual crazyness there I think.

Ooh... I really like that idea! It's tempting to move over to this story from the one on which I'm working now, but my current one's further along, I think, and I'm more confident of doing it some justice in the time available. Nevertheless, thank you for the information on the leeway available and for the idea. :)

Quote: It's difficult to draw the line, as always. As an off-the-top-of-my-head example, I'd recommend playing the Prey demo and looking for what happens to the grandfather character - any more violent than that and you're probably pushing it too far.

I haven't played the Prey demo as of yet, and an attempt to download it over the weekend was abandoned when the download restarted twice. However, I'll probably try to keep the shown detail of the violence low; I probably don't need to drive the point home with a sledgehammer, after all. ^^;

I may still look around for that demo, however. It'll probably be fun anyway. :)

Quote:

Quote: Finally, will there be a Four Elements Contest next year?

Yes.

Quote: If so, will it be likely to take place at the same time of year as this one (i.e. starting at the beginning of June)?

Yes.

Excellent - I look forward to that. :)

Many thanks for the reply!

Hi,
I'm now finishing up my entry, and I just had a question that I might not have wanted to save for the end of the contest, but hey what can I do? Anyway, I have been using the free RAD video tools (Bink), and allegro library for my game. I was just wondering, would either or both of these be invalid or considered illegal to use? Thanks.